RE: James Randi/Million Dollor challenge

[thor76]

Firstly, I hope this is the right area to post this, if it is in the wrong area please move it to the more appropriate area, thank you. If it is moved please email me so I can find it and read the responses.

Second, In advance let me say that I actually admire Mr Randi in many ways, and appluad his attempts to show fake healers, etc for what they are. He is certainly seems professional in dealings, even with those he thinks are misguided and delusional. I certainly am not here to argue our differances in opinion but to try my hand at the challenge.

Third, I would like to prove my abilities and take the challenge for the million dollor prize. I really do not think that I need to write a book or call in some news reporter to qaulify under the new rules. Esp since JRF/Randi have seemingly challenged many people who never wanted anything to do with the challenge, as they run after accepting or they turn it down indefinately.

I on the other hand could certainly use the money and if I am delusional I would rather hear from the scientists and doctors present during the testing. So what do I think I can do? I believe I can heal certain spinal conditions such as Kyphosis (hunchback) and Scoliosis. The test for this could involve patients with established medical history in relation to disorder and proof with x rays/photo/Doc check up both before and after. I could "do my magic" on say 10 people 3x's dailythroughout a week. The effects will speak for themselves. If the hunchback loses the hunch I pass. This is all done with light touch, not chriopractic treatment.

Other possible additional challenge I can do is changing the taste and sometimes smell of drinkable fluid such as wine, water, juice by lightly touching the outside of the cup for about 2 minutes. All judges, Mr Randi himself, professional wine tasters and random people off the street choson by Randi himself can taste/smell/witness this. I believe people will taste and smell the differance.

Last but not least I believe I can change the sound made by a wooden instrument such as a guitar, again with light touch and not through any manipulation of the strings. It can be video tapped and witnessed in person by Randi and anyone else. Might take an hour or more to fully fill the instrument with energy, but I believe provable results will occur. The sounds the instrument makes before and after can be recorded and compared. And I do not play intrument, someone else that you provide can.

Is this enough to qaulify for the challenge or do I really have to make it on to the Montell show or something of that nature in order for the challenge to apply to me? mr Randi please respond and tell me what you think. Anyone else as well who has something to say.

Thanks

thor76

[thor76]

Also I have in the past emailed JRF with simular letter but was given no responce. So please respond this time, thanks.

[Czarcasm]

You say you believe that you can do these things-have you done any/some/all of them in the past, and is there any documentation? I would think the healings in particular would have been written up in a medical journal, if not the local newspaper.

[Graham Jackman]

Originally Posted by thor76

Firstly, I hope this is the right area to post this, if it is in the wrong area please move it to the more appropriate area, thank you. If it is moved please email me so I can find it and read the responses.

Second, In advance let me say that I actually admire Mr Randi in many ways, and appluad his attempts to show fake healers, etc for what they are. He is certainly seems professional in dealings, even with those he thinks are misguided and delusional. I certainly am not here to argue our differances in opinion but to try my hand at the challenge.

Third, I would like to prove my abilities and take the challenge for the million dollor prize. I really do not think that I need to write a book or call in some news reporter to qaulify under the new rules. Esp since JRF/Randi have seemingly challenged many people who never wanted anything to do with the challenge, as they run after accepting or they turn it down indefinately.

I on the other hand could certainly use the money and if I am delusional I would rather hear from the scientists and doctors present during the testing. So what do I think I can do? I believe I can heal certain spinal conditions such as Kyphosis (hunchback) and Scoliosis. The test for this could involve patients with established medical history in relation to disorder and proof with x rays/photo/Doc check up both before and after. I could "do my magic" on say 10 people 3x's dailythroughout a week. The effects will speak for themselves. If the hunchback loses the hunch I pass. This is all done with light touch, not chriopractic treatment.

Other possible additional challenge I can do is changing the taste and sometimes smell of drinkable fluid such as wine, water, juice by lightly touching the outside of the cup for about 2 minutes. All judges, Mr Randi himself, professional wine tasters and random people off the street choson by Randi himself can taste/smell/witness this. I believe people will taste and smell the differance.

Last but not least I believe I can change the sound made by a wooden instrument such as a guitar, again with light touch and not through any manipulation of the strings. It can be video tapped and witnessed in person by Randi and anyone else. Might take an hour or more to fully fill the instrument with energy, but I believe provable results will occur. The sounds the instrument makes before and after can be recorded and compared. And I do not play intrument, someone else that you provide can.

Is this enough to qaulify for the challenge or do I really have to make it on to the Montell show or something of that nature in order for the challenge to apply to me? mr Randi please respond and tell me what you think. Anyone else as well who has something to say.

Thanks

thor76

You say that you believe that you can do these things, rather than that you really can do them. If you do have the ability, it should be relatively easy to attract enough media attention and witnesses to qualify for entry to the challenge.

[Reno]

thor76, where are you geographically located?

[robinson]

Originally Posted by thor76

Also I have in the past emailed JRF with simular[sic] letter but was given no responce[sic]. So please respond this time, thanks.

This is the correct part of the forum. Did you email questions like the ones here? Or a completed application? Is English your native language?

Have you done any testing already? Of any of those abilities?

[GzuzKryzt]

Thor76, it would help if you could focus on one claim.

What specifically do you want to try?
What kind of tests (and how many) have you performed for that specific claim and what were the exact results?
Have you read this?

If you want an official response, please e-mail to challenge@randi.org

[RemieV]

Thor,

The media presence is not optional. It is a requirement. Please seek out media coverage for your ability and send in your Challenge application along with the information requested within it.

~Remie

[skoob]

Hmm. Healing scoliosis, transforming liquids, changing the sound of an acoustic guitar. Why does that sound familiar?

[thor76]

Hi all, thanks . Let me try to answer you all. I live in the central valley of CA. South of Fresno in what has been referred to as the armpit of the universe. I have done these things in a class where I learned how. There is a method that I think will work in many cases. I have healed people of various sorts of pain but I think for dramatic effect people with obvious conditions are the ones to treat. So bow legged people or hunchbacks, that sort of thing. I mean if they went their whole life bent over and then after I work on them they are standing up straight the effect would speak for it self, right? I have done the changing taste of wine bit many times. The instrument thing is something I believe I could effect as well. As far as choosing one I suppose that would be healing people, I have done sessions on people who claimed to have carpal tunnel and afterwards reported heavily reduced pain, even to having no more problems. Re the question I sent a e mail to the address given on the website, several months ago, the content simular as this thread and received no response. And English is my first language...But I am not great with computers and whatnot. Technology is evil and I don't like to use it. Just kidding But I am really slow about computers and even slower at typing. And lastly, it would sound famillar because QT is one of the many healing arts I have practiced. I also do Vortexhealing, Pranic Healing, Rising Star Healing System, Angelic Reiki and others. So maby it is ego but I think I might succeed where others have failed. But I think anyone with simular training could do it. I am not thinking I am something great.
Lastly the media presnce. If it is not optional, why does Randi often challenge people who don't even know he exists, or who have no interest in the challenge and who certainly havent gone out of their way to prove their claims with Doctors and/or "educated" people which is also in the rules. The way it looks to me is that he will make exceptions when it fits him. And I am not trying to be rude with that statement, I am speaking of appearances from what I read from his commentary page about who he sent a challange to and stuff like that.

Wow that took forever to write. Have a good day y'all.

[lionking]

Well credit to you thor for at least admitting that you could use the money and the willingness to entertain the possibility that you may be delusional. Most challangers say that the money is not an issue (as if I believe that) and are unshakable in their self belief, even against overwhelming proof.

[GzuzKryzt]

Thor76, it would help if you could focus on one claim.

What exactly do you claim?

Have you read this?

What kind of tests (and how many) have you performed for that specific claim and what were the exact results? What documentation can you provide of said tests or of the results you spoke of?

[circuit_bent]

Originally Posted by thor76

I on the other hand could certainly use the money and if I am delusional I would rather hear from the scientists and doctors present during the testing. So what do I think I can do? I believe I can heal certain spinal conditions such as Kyphosis (hunchback) and Scoliosis. The test for this could involve patients with established medical history in relation to disorder and proof with x rays/photo/Doc check up both before and after. I could "do my magic" on say 10 people 3x's dailythroughout a week. The effects will speak for themselves. If the hunchback loses the hunch I pass. This is all done with light touch, not chriopractic treatment.

thor76

Why don't you go down to the local hospital or retirement centre and heal some people then?
If you pull that off, you can fashion yourself as Jesus and become the most powerful man in the U.S, if not the world.

But seriously, if you had this ability and you're not going out there and using it, isn't that pretty darn immoral?

[circuit_bent]

I hate to think how much time the JREF wastes with this kind of discussion. Including forum users, it must run up into tens of thousands of hours a year!

[Lanzy]

If you need media attention, just go to the closest newspaper office and cure some carpal tunnel. I don't think I've ever visited one without finding someone that complains of just that. So, cure a reporter.

[Georg]

Originally Posted by circuit_bent

I hate to think how much time the JREF wastes with this kind of discussion. Including forum users, it must run up into tens of thousands of hours a year!

The J.R.E.F. indeed had this problem. That´s one reason for the changes in the application process (media presence etc.).

But: not every poster on the forum sees that as a waste of time. It´s a way of educating the claimants as well as the fencesitters. And, at least for me, it´s fun. This comment of yourself

Quote:

If you pull that off, you can fashion yourself as Jesus and become the most powerful man in the U.S, if not the world.

indicates that it is fun for you as well.

If I´m wrong, and you see it as a waste of time, my question is: why are you posting in a thread like this?

[Apathia]

Thor76,

Welcome.
FYI:
Look up threads started by Christopher Pille and Antranik1 who were also considering using Quantum Touch for the Challenge.

[circuit_bent]

Originally Posted by Georg

The J.R.E.F. indeed had this problem. That´s one reason for the changes in the application process (media presence etc.).

But: not every poster on the forum sees that as a waste of time. It´s a way of educating the claimants as well as the fencesitters. And, at least for me, it´s fun. This comment of yourself



indicates that it is fun for you as well.

If I´m wrong, and you see it as a waste of time, my question is: why are you posting in a thread like this?

Sure, I can see that some forum users might want to talk about it and it would be enjoyable. But with cases like these, I think they would be better off being directed to a professional in the field of psychiatry.

From my point of view, I see the 'claimant' going on and on about having magic powers and I just think it's a bit ridiculous and perhaps inhumane to allow a deluded person to go on and on about their magic abilities while we're sitting down watching the mess with popcorn in our laps and big grins on our faces.

And I know, maybe something might come out of conversing with the person. But if they allow themselves to actually believe these things without subjecting themselves to scrutiny? That's not a promising start.

I tend to think the only really worthwhile thing this organization can do (yes, I know the forum is not the same as JREF, but let me vent!) is to charge full tilt at the big guns in the field of fraud. Randi needs to repeat what he did with Geller and transpose it to even more insidious frauds.

Gathering like vultures (us by indulging threads like this) to see the next person with mental infirmities wander into view is a bit of a travesty.

[circuit_bent]

Originally Posted by Lanzy

If you need media attention, just go to the closest newspaper office and cure some carpal tunnel. I don't think I've ever visited one without finding someone that complains of just that. So, cure a reporter.

That's an excellent idea.

[Loss Leader]

Thor -

Perhaps before going for a million dollars, you should do some self tests. All you need is six glasses of water, six friends, a six-sided die and a large piece of cardboard. Have someone pour six glasses of water and arrange them, numbered, behind the cardboard so that you friends cannot see them. Then you roll the die and you proceed to try to change the taste of whichever glass' number comes up. Lift the cardboard and let your friends try the water. If four of them can guess correctly which one you changed, you might be on to something and you could then stage a larger and more complex test.

Remember, this is a self-test to help prove to yourself that these powers exist. As such, there's no point in cheating.

You shouldn't go right for the million any more than somebody should go right for the Yankees without playing in little league, college and the minors first.

[yairhol]

The people claiming different abilities to win the million dollar challenge never stop amazing me. Here they are, on one hand having the most earth shattering powers ever known to man - powers that are attributed mainly to gods, but on the other hand feel the need to go after the million dollars (which requires certain conditions, notorizations, filling applications, travel time, etc.)? Obviously these people can become the richest people in the world, the most famous and having their names said in the same breath as Einstein and Newton (not to talk about the women they'll have....oh the women). Why do they care about the million? And they get frustrated if Randi doesn't approve their protocol and fight to get accepted to the challenge....

I just don't understand.

Regards,
Yair

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by yairhol

The people claiming different abilities to win the million dollar challenge never stop amazing me. Here they are, on one hand having the most earth shattering powers ever known to man - powers that are attributed mainly to gods, but on the other hand feel the need to go after the million dollars (which requires certain conditions, notorizations, filling applications, travel time, etc.)? Obviously these people can become the richest people in the world, the most famous and having their names said in the same breath as Einstein and Newton (not to talk about the women they'll have....oh the women). Why do they care about the million? And they get frustrated if Randi doesn't approve their protocol and fight to get accepted to the challenge....

I just don't understand.

Regards,
Yair

The set of such people who believe they have these abilities is quite large.

The set of such people who actually have these abilities is infinitesimally small, maybe zero. But I guess we'll never know. Sigh.

[thor76]

The tests that I have done, with QT were with friends and family where we would open a bottle of wine and pour the wine into two containers per person and I would spend about 2 minutes putting energy into 1 cup from each person, who then would taste for any differances. The result has generally been clear, that there is a tastable differance. I have done this maby 6 times. Actually before QT I used to use a vortexhealing method to do it, that we also use on instruments.

I feel confident that I could do this to an unopened bottle of wine straight from the factory and that when compared to the bottle next to it that came from the same batch there would be a large tastable differance.

That is a good idea about the reporter. I might look into that in the next few weeks. It would be great to have a story wrote about me healing someone. Heck that would be good to have around anyway for advertising. Thanks.

I wouldnt want to pretend to the Rabbi Jeshua Ben Mariam's status. That's Jesus's real name, Jesus means son of Zues or something so most christians don't even know who they worship. I of course am differant because I am not christian but actually a real wizard of high power not seen since Jesus walked the earth. Just kidding, Hope no one was eating or drinking as they read that...I just believe in miracles and know what others have done in personal settings and consider myself to be at least almost as good as they are...

The proposed wine test by Loss Leader would be interesting but what about unopened bottles tasting differant than other bottles from the same batch or the one I did where 2 cups are poured per person all from the same bottle and I magic 1 cup of each drinker and then they describe the differance if any.

Actually my personal belief is that everyone has these abilities but most people are completely unaware of thier exisance or "how to do it".

My hope is that at some point ki/prana is proven by scientific instrumentation, because at that point it would be sensitive enough to read any increase or decrese so we can move onto various methods of using energy.

Thanks

[thor76]

Re the wine, I meant about 6 times in the group setting, 1 on 1 would be about 10.

[Unalienable]

Originally Posted by thor76

The tests that I have done, with QT were with friends and family where we would open a bottle of wine and pour the wine into two containers per person and I would spend about 2 minutes putting energy into 1 cup from each person, who then would taste for any differances. The result has generally been clear, that there is a tastable differance.

I think you are saying, that you touched a wineglass and then convinced somebody who watched the entire procedure that it tastes different. That could be attributed to the power of suggestion.

I would suggest a more rigorous test, one that involves the taster to leave the room so they don't know which glass is the one effected, and then see if they can figure out which one tastes different.

[Paul2]

Thor76, I'd love to have you answer the questions in post#13 in this thread.

[sgf8]

Quote:

I tend to think the only really worthwhile thing this organization can do (yes, I know the forum is not the same as JREF, but let me vent!) is to charge full tilt at the big guns in the field of fraud. Randi needs to repeat what he did with Geller and transpose it to even more insidious frauds.

This has been one of my questions also. But the answer as I have heard several places is that FIRST the challenge has to be effect with the media presence for some time (maybe a year) then JREF can go after those people in the media who haven't sought out the prize. I don't think the JREF chases down people now, but they will be able to in time.

SECOND - The think with Geller was extreamly expensive. Do you think Browne or others is going to go down without lawyers? All the ducks have to be in a row, money set aside and all the T's crossed before he can go after the big guns.

In the mean time we will have to deal with the scientifically challenged persons who really do believe they have special powers. Personally I think the big guns know that what they are peddling isn't real, and this their real source of income and will fight to protect it.

Susan

[sgf8]

I think a easy test would be to take some rancid tasting drink or very spoiled milk and try and turn it into something people will enjoy drinking. I doubt that your friends and family will be able finish the drink if it still tastes nasty.

You must be able to do a controlled test before you can claim that you have powers. If they see you pour out a drink and know that you have changed the flavor then how do you know they aren't being "nice" or "suggestible" when they say the flavor has changed?

Refer back to the test suggested and try it in the next 24 hours. It is a quick and easy test that should only take a few minutes for you to determine if you are deluding yourself or if you could be possibly on to the million dollars and more fame that you can handle.

Then let us know your results.

Susan

[Georg]

Originally Posted by circuit_bent

Sure, I can see that some forum users might want to talk about it and it would be enjoyable. But with cases like these, I think they would be better off being directed to a professional in the field of psychiatry.

From my point of view, I see the 'claimant' going on and on about having magic powers and I just think it's a bit ridiculous and perhaps inhumane to allow a deluded person to go on and on about their magic abilities while we're sitting down watching the mess with popcorn in our laps and big grins on our faces.

And I know, maybe something might come out of conversing with the person. But if they allow themselves to actually believe these things without subjecting themselves to scrutiny? That's not a promising start.

I tend to think the only really worthwhile thing this organization can do (yes, I know the forum is not the same as JREF, but let me vent!) is to charge full tilt at the big guns in the field of fraud. Randi needs to repeat what he did with Geller and transpose it to even more insidious frauds.

Gathering like vultures (us by indulging threads like this) to see the next person with mental infirmities wander into view is a bit of a travesty.

There are some points that I agree with, and others I do not. It is not O.K to mock people who are clearly mentally ill. But who is going to decide that? Should the jref do that and ban those posters? Employ a psychologist to make sure the decision is right? Are you qualified to make the decision? And I´m not sure if the O.P. falls in that category. He is willing to be tested and accept it when scientists and doctors tell him that he is deluded as he said in his first post. If you think that he is mentally ill you should read some of the old threads in the challenge section and you´ll be surprised.......
And of course it is right to go after the big fish, we probably all agree on that.
For the great grey area between the con-men and the mentally ill, everybody should make his own decision. Educate them, mock them, educate them by showing them how ridiculous their claims are, whatever. It´s a personal choice in my opinion, limited only by the membership agreement and your personal ethics.
The start of our discussion was your statement that all of this is a waste of time though, and I still do not agree with that. If you want to take this discussion further, O.K., but then you should start a new thread where I am willing to participate, but we should not be going on to derail this one.
Back to work now.

[thor76]

Paul2,
"Why don't you go down to the local hospital or retirement centre and heal some people then?"

Hadn't thought about it, I suppose I could. It is an idea anyway. i have been more interested in teaching QT to people. So the idea to get a reporter to do the story is a good one anyway.

I did think about going to a few churches, but most of the time they have their own uneffective methods of prayer and "laying of hands", the whole time unaware that if Jesus did exist and did the things he did, it would involve a system or method that is trainable (because the bible says he trained others) and that what was written down was a very bare description of how and what it looked like.

They also never seem to understand that calling people the wrong name is a sure way to be ignored....A private joke based on most Christians only know the name jesus and not the name of the person they worship that he would have known as him while living. I can just see Rabbi Jeshua standing around in heaven going..."Where is this Jesus and will he help these people already, I feel like I am doing all the work around here"

There is a method used by Pranic healers for example that has helped and healed thousands across the globe. But it is a workable method and I feel so is the QT and Vortexhealing, etc. Anyway, long story short unless you shout out load "Jesus heal this man" and act like one of them they don't want your healing because it might "be the devil" or a "satanic cult" or whatnot.

This people are way worse to deal with than skeptics and atheists in many instances. i mean I once had a missionary who had just got back from converting people in Africa tell me the healing work I was learning was "evil devil worship and satanic power" and all this jazz. He said "oh I saw that vodoo before and just wouldn't shut up about it. And the thing is, I never got to work on him or show him what I do. Just described it in conversation. So anyway, all you skeptics can call me delusional all day long, thats ok, but hearing people go on and make up claims about what I do that have no bearing on anything, that is just a crazy thing. I mean with them I have to qoute Jesus so they leave me alone, a la "A house divided cannot stand".

Anyway, I believe in certain methods. For physical things that can be proven I certainly believe in science in so far as what it can prove. But it starts with a workable method. For me the same is true in the energetic realm, where the methods of Pranic Healing and QT are or seem to be the most effective and seem to produce the most results in certain settings.

"But seriously, if you had this ability and you're not going out there and using it, isn't that pretty darn immoral?"

Well not reallybut it could befor others.

See for me, morality is not so much what is impressed on us from our cultures but what we percieve we should do based on our awareness and understanding as well as our personal inclinations to help. basically if you are the mother Teresa type then it would be immoral to have this ability and not use it to help and heal. But someone else with a differant background could apply it to only oneself and close freinds and not be doing anything near immoral.

Because you are helping yourself (first remove the plank from your own eye before helping to remove splinters from others) and positivly affecting others close to you. So you do fullfil the NT command to "go forth and heal" but on a small scale, becuase the powers are smaller. No big miracles here, I am not making statues talk.

Besides if Jesus can heal on the Sabbith day and be sinless, I can pick and choose who I work with and when. Actually in NT a non Jew asked Jesus to heal her or her duaghter and was at first denied and called a dog. So if jesus can do that surely I can not be immoral simply by not broadcasting the method on every radio and tv channel, or going to every hospital and whatnot.

But if the question was serious and the poster learned QT or PH or any other effective method, that peron could have the same "mother Teresa" attitude/morality or whatnot so that in his/her case it might be immoral as it goes against his/her perceptions or consciousness (there is a differant word I was thinking of but will substitute those words to get the point across...what was that word?)

I don't know why I am using so much Bible to defend any position I hold in terms of morality and ethics because we all know most of that book is anything but moral and you can see that just by reading it, except as I said I am sooo used to using it, esp the words of Jesus himself to defend myself from those bible thumpers that I suppose it just came out reflexivly. Oh well.

What do you guys think? Both about the question as far as your opinion and my response?

[thor76]

SGF8,

I dont know if that would work with the rancid...Both QT and PH use what we term "life force energy" or chi/ki/prana. I am not a scientist so I don't know, but is there not some living organisim in bad milk? like the cultures or something? becuase if there is the effect might be to make the milk better as the test would try to prove, or it could give more energy to the organisims in milk if any or present, and that might make it go the other way, ie creating a space for more to grow. That would make a good test for any differances but would require a scientist to study the reality of the occurance.

[thor76]

Unaleanable,

That is a good one. And the cups can be marked and and the expiriment recorded.
I don't have a recorder but the test is still doable.

[JoeEllison]

Originally Posted by thor76

Paul2,
"Why don't you go down to the local hospital or retirement centre and heal some people then?"

Hadn't thought about it, I suppose I could.

And this is my main reason for dismissing pretty much all of these claims. How could you not have thought about it immediately, first thing, before anything else?

[GzuzKryzt]

Originally Posted by thor76

Paul2,
"Why don't you go down to the local hospital or retirement centre and heal some people then?"

Hadn't thought about it, I suppose I could. It is an idea anyway. i have been more interested in teaching QT to people. So the idea to get a reporter to do the story is a good one anyway.

I did think about going to a few churches, but most of the time they have their own uneffective methods of prayer and "laying of hands", the whole time unaware that if Jesus did exist and did the things he did, it would involve a system or method that is trainable (because the bible says he trained others) and that what was written down was a very bare description of how and what it looked like.

They also never seem to understand that calling people the wrong name is a sure way to be ignored....A private joke based on most Christians only know the name jesus and not the name of the person they worship that he would have known as him while living. I can just see Rabbi Jeshua standing around in heaven going..."Where is this Jesus and will he help these people already, I feel like I am doing all the work around here"

There is a method used by Pranic healers for example that has helped and healed thousands across the globe. But it is a workable method and I feel so is the QT and Vortexhealing, etc. Anyway, long story short unless you shout out load "Jesus heal this man" and act like one of them they don't want your healing because it might "be the devil" or a "satanic cult" or whatnot.

This people are way worse to deal with than skeptics and atheists in many instances. i mean I once had a missionary who had just got back from converting people in Africa tell me the healing work I was learning was "evil devil worship and satanic power" and all this jazz. He said "oh I saw that vodoo before and just wouldn't shut up about it. And the thing is, I never got to work on him or show him what I do. Just described it in conversation. So anyway, all you skeptics can call me delusional all day long, thats ok, but hearing people go on and make up claims about what I do that have no bearing on anything, that is just a crazy thing. I mean with them I have to qoute Jesus so they leave me alone, a la "A house divided cannot stand".

Anyway, I believe in certain methods. For physical things that can be proven I certainly believe in science in so far as what it can prove. But it starts with a workable method. For me the same is true in the energetic realm, where the methods of Pranic Healing and QT are or seem to be the most effective and seem to produce the most results in certain settings.

"But seriously, if you had this ability and you're not going out there and using it, isn't that pretty darn immoral?"

Well not reallybut it could befor others.

See for me, morality is not so much what is impressed on us from our cultures but what we percieve we should do based on our awareness and understanding as well as our personal inclinations to help. basically if you are the mother Teresa type then it would be immoral to have this ability and not use it to help and heal. But someone else with a differant background could apply it to only oneself and close freinds and not be doing anything near immoral.

Because you are helping yourself (first remove the plank from your own eye before helping to remove splinters from others) and positivly affecting others close to you. So you do fullfil the NT command to "go forth and heal" but on a small scale, becuase the powers are smaller. No big miracles here, I am not making statues talk.

Besides if Jesus can heal on the Sabbith day and be sinless, I can pick and choose who I work with and when. Actually in NT a non Jew asked Jesus to heal her or her duaghter and was at first denied and called a dog. So if jesus can do that surely I can not be immoral simply by not broadcasting the method on every radio and tv channel, or going to every hospital and whatnot.

But if the question was serious and the poster learned QT or PH or any other effective method, that peron could have the same "mother Teresa" attitude/morality or whatnot so that in his/her case it might be immoral as it goes against his/her perceptions or consciousness (there is a differant word I was thinking of but will substitute those words to get the point across...what was that word?)

I don't know why I am using so much Bible to defend any position I hold in terms of morality and ethics because we all know most of that book is anything but moral and you can see that just by reading it, except as I said I am sooo used to using it, esp the words of Jesus himself to defend myself from those bible thumpers that I suppose it just came out reflexivly. Oh well.

What do you guys think? Both about the question as far as your opinion and my response?

Perhaps you overlooked my post. I reposted it for your convenience:

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt

Thor76, it would help if you could focus on one claim.

What exactly do you claim?

Have you read this?

What kind of tests (and how many) have you performed for that specific claim and what were the exact results? What documentation can you provide of said tests or of the results you spoke of?

For the purpose of the MDC, theories are meaningless. After you have focused on one specific claim, you have to propose a method of proving said claim.

[circuit_bent]

Originally Posted by thor76

See for me, morality is not so much what is impressed on us from our cultures but what we percieve we should do based on our awareness and understanding as well as our personal inclinations to help. basically if you are the mother Teresa type then it would be immoral to have this ability and not use it to help and heal. But someone else with a differant background could apply it to only oneself and close freinds and not be doing anything near immoral.

Because you are helping yourself (first remove the plank from your own eye before helping to remove splinters from others) and positivly affecting others close to you. So you do fullfil the NT command to "go forth and heal" but on a small scale, becuase the powers are smaller. No big miracles here, I am not making statues talk.

Besides if Jesus can heal on the Sabbith day and be sinless, I can pick and choose who I work with and when. Actually in NT a non Jew asked Jesus to heal her or her duaghter and was at first denied and called a dog. So if jesus can do that surely I can not be immoral simply by not broadcasting the method on every radio and tv channel, or going to every hospital and whatnot.

But if the question was serious and the poster learned QT or PH or any other effective method, that peron could have the same "mother Teresa" attitude/morality or whatnot so that in his/her case it might be immoral as it goes against his/her perceptions or consciousness (there is a differant word I was thinking of but will substitute those words to get the point across...what was that word?)

I don't know why I am using so much Bible to defend any position I hold in terms of morality and ethics because we all know most of that book is anything but moral and you can see that just by reading it, except as I said I am sooo used to using it, esp the words of Jesus himself to defend myself from those bible thumpers that I suppose it just came out reflexivly. Oh well.

What do you guys think? Both about the question as far as your opinion and my response?

I'm pretty confused with your stance on morality.

Let's look at it in the terms you present it. Remember, I'm just a regular guy. I don't claim to have to have any vortex healing powers or quantum touch ability. Wish I did, will you teach us all so we can banish all ailments from the world? I've got some moderate/sometimes major back pain pretty much all the time. Most people have some kind of back problem actually.

Anyway..back to morality. You are aware that there is much suffering around you. You understand that they are suffering and via empathy you realise that their predicament is extremely unpleasant. Then onto point 3 you raise. Inclination to help. Why on Earth would you not want to help people on a large scale? Morality basically concerns putting aside your own wishes for the greater good. This case is black and white. You are a bad person if you can heal people of terrible, crippling ailments but you don't because you don't have the 'personal inclination' to help.

I am baffled by this attitude. It is a convenient way to not have to prove you abilities outside your close-knit group of friends though. Let us notice that right away.

In the next paragraph you mention that you aren't producing grand miracles. Well, let me tell you, making statues talk won't help anyone. But curing scoliosis and mending peoples backs would be of tremendous benefit to a great many people. Many people would have their lives back, and that's no understatement. In fact, this would be the most important finding in the history of mankind If you could prove this ability.

Ok, I know you'll mention the miracles of Jesus here. But I'm talking about contemporary, verifiable observation of this type of healing.


Now, your next paragraph made my head spin. You mean you could go on radio and tell everybody how to heal themselves? And you won't and you don't see that as a problem?
And no, you don't have to go to every hospital. Why not go to one hospital, and put that vortex healing and quantum touch to good use. Maybe liberate some elderly person from chronic pain, or perhaps heal a small child with a twisted spine that can only look forward to a constricted, limited life. Go with your students too. You won't donate some of your time to help out fellow humans in distress?

Down another paragraph and you seem to suggest, I would say you do suggest that anybody can learn psychic healing or quantum touch or whatever. Now, do you see a slight problem here. If these things existed my friend, we would be well aware of it by now. We would have many cases of healing and in fact, hospitals wouldn't exist. Or at least there wouldn't be so many people with twisted spines in hospital...surely?

What do you make of this concept. It makes sense doesn't it? You say you teach people how to perform these acts, you seem to suggest many people know how to do it. Why don't we have even 1 documented case of these healings taking place? I relish hearing your reponse to this one.

Let me also say that I flat-out think you are delusional about this aspect of your self. Your healing beliefs. Let me also say that I think you sound like a smart guy and that is very reassuring to me. It means you must be able to look critically at your beliefs and see that beliefs can be wrong. Our judgement can fail us.

It sounds to me like 1 factor why you might entertain this belief is because it meshes with your beliefs about the life of Jesus. (or whatever his real name is) So if you did have these abilities, it lends credence to some of the claims in the bible about the healing miracles he performed.

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by thor76

The proposed wine test by Loss Leader would be interesting but what about unopened bottles tasting differant than other bottles from the same batch or the one I did where 2 cups are poured per person all from the same bottle and I magic 1 cup of each drinker and then they describe the differance if any.

Thor, I don't know why you'd use two different unopened bottles. They might taste different even if from the same batch. You should compare liquid from the same bottle or just unoppened bottles of water if you like.

The most important thing is that the tasters NOT KNOW which cups you have "changed" and which you haven't. Your manipulation of cups or bottles should be done entirely out of their sight.

Without this protection, I would say that any test of your power would be absolutely worthless. I hope you agree.

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by thor76

Besides if Jesus can heal on the Sabbith day and be sinless, I can pick and choose who I work with and when.

Note that Jesus has also not won the million. If you want it, you'll need to perform when the test is scheduled.

Quote:

What do you guys think? Both about the question as far as your opinion and my response?

I think you are rambling, as so many do who make such claims. Please focus on simple tests of your claimed abilities that eliminate as much bias as possible. Take them, and see what you learn.

Will you do that?

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Thor, I don't know why you'd use two different unopened bottles. They might taste different even if from the same batch. You should compare liquid from the same bottle or just unoppened bottles of water if you like.

The most important thing is that the tasters NOT KNOW which cups you have "changed" and which you haven't. Your manipulation of cups or bottles should be done entirely out of their sight.

Without this protection, I would say that any test of your power would be absolutely worthless. I hope you agree.

I recommend against using wine for such a test. Wine's taste and aroma can change as it aerates, warms, and releases aromatics. Also, I don't know how you'd account for potential physiological differences between two drinks a few minutes apart, which may be perfectly normal, particularly with alcohol.

[circuit_bent]

How's this for a simple experiment.

Pour out 6 glasses of wine from the same bottle. Number the glasses. Have your friend take a sip of each and determine that they do indeed taste the same.

He then leaves the room. Now, you do not touch the glasses at all. They must remain in exactly the positions as when he/she left the room.

You then roll a die and whatever number comes up, you 'do your thing' on the corresponding glass of wine. You invite your friend back and have him identify the glass of wine that you changed. Pretty trivial challenge isn't it?

Repeat this a number of times.

If your friend can pick the one that you chose to work on 'energetically' 50% of the time, and do so consistently, that would be very significant.

If they can pick the right one everytime, then you will certainly have your million dollars. But 50% is good enough. They should only pick the 'right' one about 17% of the time.

[thor76]

Joe, "How could you not have thought about it immediately, first thing, before anything else?"

I did think about visiting a childerns hospital but that is over a 40 min drive for me, one way. I hadn't thought about old people in old people homes and neither did I really think my local hospital or the people there would be very receptive. Please understand that my town, and on a larger scale my county probally has more bars and churches than any other simularly sized town. There is alot of the anti harry potter, anything that can be called anti christian, etc. mentallity that one has to work through.



Gzuzkryst, "Perhaps you overlooked my post. I reposted it for your convenience"

Sorry and thanks.

"What exactly do you claim?"

My claim is that I can relieve pain with a light touch from many people and to prove the extent of this ability am willing to work on/heal people with spine and back problems, esp those who are are obviously disfigured and have been for sometime, ie, hunchbacks, bowleggedness, s curved spine, or massively misaligned bone, esp in the head as in some birth defects people sometimes have. My claim is that I can greatly reduce the pain and likely heal heal them to a great degree beyond their former state, depending on how many treatments are given, and the time of those treatments. A treatment could be 30 min or 1hr 30 min depending on severity and what is moving. If it were the million dolleor challenge I would want to do daily treatments on several people, maby up to 10 people.

My second claim is that I can change the taste of water, wine soda, to a tastable degree. Provable by getting somewhat bad tasting tap water and then putting energy in it which will noticably change its taste. Wine may change too much even from the same batch, as someone said. But what about unopened soda? It always tasts the same. If for some reason every pepsi I touched was almost flat would that secure the prize? I have done that to my own satisfaction before but it is easily tested by others. Just get two cans of pop, treat one.

"Have you read this?"

Yes but thank you for posting it.

"What kind of tests (and how many) have you performed for that specific claim and what were the exact results?"

As far as the wine, about 10 times 1 on 1 and 6 times in a group setting. Worked everytime most people are amazed.

"What documentation can you provide of said tests or of the results you spoke of?"

Well, since it has always been family or friends no scientist was there to obseve so I would have to say no documentation. I suppose I can eventually purchase a video camera and when ever I do something people can see it, leastwise put it on youtube or something.