(ed) Rapper to name new album with the n-word

Thunder · 19th October 2007, 07:39 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title

I really must say that if it wasn't for rap music and movies about the KKK, this word would vanish from our lexicon.

Some argue that they are taking the power from the word and using it in a new context. Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never.

quixotecoyote · 19th October 2007, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title

I really must say that if it wasn't for rap music and movies about the KKK, this word would vanish from our lexicon.

Some argue that they are taking the power from the word and using it in a new context. Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never.

Thank you, I've been looking for a way to phrase what I found lacking in that argument.

eta: point made even better here (NSFW):
http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/2007/...ng-the-n-word/

EeneyMinnieMoe · 19th October 2007, 08:09 PM

I'm on principle against all double standards of any kind but this is one case where the double standard is sad and unfortunate but- sadly - understandable.

It's an ironic example of the chickens coming home to roast that white people, in effect, can't say it now.

Redtail · 19th October 2007, 11:12 PM

Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n***as, once more.

Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are...

The word should be abolished/banned.
It's our word, you've used it enough.
That word is ok in certain situations.
The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.

The word should be abolished/banned
This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?"

It's our word, you've used it enough
This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White.

That word is ok in certain situations.
Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A** N****S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada." I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people.

The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.
Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n***a not n***er.
... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples.
In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in n***a form. One day in rehearsal he says n***er instead of n***a and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction.
In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used n***er over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her.

Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor moment.
Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.)

For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said..
Voice:What do you see?
Richard:All colors of people doing everything.
Voice: Do you see any *******?
Richard: ...No...
Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any.
Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ******.

I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth.

jimtron · 19th October 2007, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title

Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never.

For good reason. I don't think the four letter anti-semitic word that starts with k will lose its power anytime soon either. There's a reason these words have power, because they're not just words. They're symbols of very real and often violent hatred.

Sir Robin Goodfellow · 20th October 2007, 02:11 AM

Words can elicit such strong reactions in people. I don't blame anyone from any ethnicity for being offended or feeling uncomfortable around words like these. These words represent the worst people have to offer each other.

skeptifem · 20th October 2007, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n***as, once more.

Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are...

The word should be abolished/banned.
It's our word, you've used it enough.
That word is ok in certain situations.
The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.

The word should be abolished/banned
This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?"

It's our word, you've used it enough
This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White.

That word is ok in certain situations.
Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A** N****S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada." I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people.

The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.
Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n***a not n***er.
... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples.
In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in n***a form. One day in rehearsal he says n***er instead of n***a and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction.
In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used n***er over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her.

Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor moment.
Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.)

For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said..
Voice:What do you see?
Richard:All colors of people doing everything.
Voice: Do you see any *******?
Richard: ...No...
Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any.
Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ******.

I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth.

good post

Wheezebucket · 20th October 2007, 06:32 AM

I love me some Nas, so I'm sure I'll buy it (well, steal it off the internet, anyway).

I like this part - "And to my older people who don't know who Nas is and who don't know what a street disciple is, stay outta this (expletive) conversation. We'll talk to you when we're ready."

Zygar · 25th October 2007, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

That word is ok in certain situations.
Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A** N****S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada." I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people.

I agree wholeheartedly. That episode floored me with how brilliant and appropriate it was.

And your whole post was excellent.

Darth Rotor · 25th October 2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n***as, once more.

A good post.

Comment on Richard Prior.

When I was in high school, I bought my first Richard Prior record. It was called "That N - i - g - g - e - r's Crazy." It was funny as hell. (His insult to a vampire stalking the 'hood in one skit: "I hope you get sickle cell, m***f***!" ) It was recorded on the set of the TV show Soul Train.

His following album was called "Was It Something I Said?" The cover had Richard tied up on a post, and a half dozen folks dressed as clansmen, torches raised.

Could anyone make that album, or the other one's album cover, these days? If not, why not?

DR

technoextreme · 25th October 2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.
Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n***a not n***er.
... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples.

Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap.

dudalb · 25th October 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap.

Correct.Niggard is derived from a Norse word for a greedy,selfish Ebenezer Scrooge type person. It has no racial connotations,though I don't use it because it is too easily misinterpreted.

bigred · 25th October 2007, 01:01 PM

Am I the only one who has noticed that the more "aware" of (ie hypersensitive about) this word our society becomes, the more easily people are offended by it? Coincedence? I doubt it. You can't even say the word (ie not calling someone that but as a joke or sarcasticaly, or even to just discuss the word itself) nowdays without people freaking out. Even here at JREF, which prides itself on free speech, free thought etc, it is one of the very few banned words. The race card's power is at an all-time high - to the point of lunacy.

And even then, I'd be a lot more "tolerant" of all that absurd hypersensitivity if it weren't for the massive hypocrisy, double-standards and two-wrongs-make-a-right boneheadedness surrounding not just that but the whole "race issue thing" in general. You can say honky, cracker, whop, mick, spic, chink (etc) and the most you'll get from most people is a reaction of mild distaste - if that. Want to name a movie "White Men Can't Jump?" No problem. Heck it's even funny. hahahaha. Nothing racist there either.

But heaven forbid you should even say...gasp......"THE WORD"

For crying out loud: racism is either ugly or it isn't. If you hate racial slurs, it makes no sense whatsover to freak about some but casually dismiss or even laugh at others, esp in this day and age.

For all the lip service given to "equality," I'm not seeing it.

pipelineaudio · 25th October 2007, 02:07 PM

Im with James Randi on this one

Words are not magic, get over it...ESPECIALLY if you are going to use it constantly

If you call me a you know what Ill call you a you know what right back to your face

deal with it

technoextreme · 25th October 2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

You can say honky, cracker, whop, mick, spic, chink (etc) and the most you'll get from most people is a reaction of mild distaste - if that.

That's because the only people have heard of them are old. Not only that but a five minute search on wikipedia shows you are wrong/ignorant.

jimtron · 25th October 2007, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Im with James Randi on this one

Words are not magic, get over it...ESPECIALLY if you are going to use it constantly

If you call me a you know what Ill call you a you know what right back to your face

deal with it

Words are not magic, but they can be very offensive. What if a mother was walking with her 7 year old daughter, and someone started saying very obscene, sexual remarks to the child (with no threat, implied or otherwise, of physical harm). If the mother and daughter were offended, are they overly "PC"? Why should the mother be offended--after all, they're just words, they don't have magic powers.

What if someone went to a Holocaust museum and started using anti-semitic epithets (such as the 4 letter one beginning with "K")? (Again, I'm not talking about anything physical, just using words). Would other patrons of the museum be overreacting if they were offended?

To say, "words don't have magical powers" is a strawman, IMHO. Of course they don't. But words can stir up very real feelings about very real hatred, violence, and oppression. Words have impact--if they didn't, we wouldn't have great literature. Words convey our ideas and feelings and attitudes and viewpoints.

My view is, who am I to say who should or shouldn't be offended by something? I happen to enjoy some humor that would be considered very offensive to some people. But I respect that they find it offensive. Everyone finds something offensive, even Howard Stern and Bill Maher.

As for the so-called double standard: I don't see that as a problem. If a gay man calls another gay man "fag," that has a different meaning than if a homophobic lunkhead called one of them that. When a black person calls another black person the n word, that has a much different meaning and context than if a KKK member calls one of them that.

I'm for freedom of speech. If Michael Richards or Don Imus want to make racist remarks, though I may disagree with them, they have that right. And Al Sharpton (and the many others, both black and white) has a right to express his response.

If I'm offended by something, who is anyone else to tell me that I shouldn't be offended?

Redtail · 25th October 2007, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Comment on Richard Prior.

When I was in high school, I bought my first Richard Prior record. It was called "That N - i - g - g - e - r's Crazy." It was funny as hell. (His insult to a vampire stalking the 'hood in one skit: "I hope you get sickle cell, m***f***!" ) It was recorded on the set of the TV show Soul Train.

His following album was called "Was It Something I Said?" The cover had Richard tied up on a post, and a half dozen folks dressed as clansmen, torches raised.

Could anyone make that album, or the other one's album cover, these days? If not, why not?

DR

Do you mean the language of the first album like the insult posted above, or does someone have the comedic skill to make that album today? If it's the former then I think they could. Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill. This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him. That's my 2 cents unless I've misunderstood the question in which case sorry.

The album cover? Sadly no. We've become to PC for things like that. Remember that Job interview bit on Saturday Night Live with Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase? I've seen that episode on reruns but they cut that scene out.

Redtail · 25th October 2007, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap.

I think there is some confusion and it may very well be on my part. I'm not saying niggard I'm saying ni**a which is n***er with the "er" dropped kind of like some one from "Bahston pahkin da ca" it's a dialect thing.

If you were just pointing out that niggard isn't a slur then never mind sorry.

With that said if one were to constantly use niggard or niggardly looking at the only Black person in the room with a silly smirk on their face is just obnoxious.

pipelineaudio · 25th October 2007, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by jimtron

If I'm offended by something, who is anyone else to tell me that I shouldn't be offended?

Who says you shouldn't?

All Im saying is you dont have the right NOT to be offended

EVERYTHING is offensive to someone

Name three things that are not offensive to anyone

jimtron · 25th October 2007, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Who says you shouldn't?

My impression from the OP and other posts here, is that black people shouldn't be offended by the N word:

Quote:

Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never.

The quote above reminds me of a Chris Rock joke. He brings up how some white people complain that it's OK for blacks to call each other the "N" word, but not OK for whites to call blacks that. He describes a very wealthy white man, on an enormous yacht, with gorgeous supermodels on each arm. He says, "Now if I could only call black people N******!" Why would you want to "walk up to a black man and call him (the "N" word)"?

Quote:

EVERYTHING is offensive to someone

I completely agree--that's why I said the following in my previous post:

Quote:

Everyone finds something offensive, even Howard Stern and Bill Maher.

My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it.

pipelineaudio · 25th October 2007, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by jimtron

I completely agree--that's why I said the following in my previous post:My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it.

Ahh, I get you.

The dicey part for me is when people turn their being offended into laws to limit the freedoms of others, or to force them to do stupid thing.

Probably my favorite local one is "We live in the desert and laws are in place to conserve water, however, your not having grass offends me. You MUST destroy all native plant and animal life on your property and plant grass, or you WILL be fined"

jimtron · 25th October 2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

The dicey part for me is when people turn their being offended into laws to limit the freedoms of others, or to force them to do stupid thing.

I agree--I'm a strong proponent of free speech. I'm against legislating morality.

I think it's ridiculous to consider "banning" the "N" word, or censoring books where it appears, etc. On the other hand, if someone says they're offended by the word, I respect that--who am I to say they shouldn't be offended? Michael Richards has the right to call members of his audience n******, and Jerry Seinfeld has the right to publicly call Richards' behavior "extremely offensive." If some people don't find Richards' tirade to be offensive; I respect that (and disagree). Many people were offended by the tirade, and I don't think it's anyone's place to say they shouldn't be.

cloudshipsrule · 27th October 2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill. This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him.

Kramer?

Redtail · 27th October 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by cloudshipsrule

Kramer?

BLASPHEMY!!!

EGarrett · 29th October 2007, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A** N****S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada." I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people.

Great post. But people of far lesser intelligence, maturity and knowledge, apparently like the creator of "The Boondocks"...should never, ever try to put words into the mouth of someone like Martin Luther King. He tried to here, with obviously very little comedic value...and only exposed himself.

fuelair · 29th October 2007, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n***as, once more.

Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are...

The word should be abolished/banned.
It's our word, you've used it enough.
That word is ok in certain situations.
The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.

The word should be abolished/banned
This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?"

It's our word, you've used it enough
This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White.

That word is ok in certain situations.
Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A** N****S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada." I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people.

The "a" is ok "er" is wrong.
Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n***a not n***er.
... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples.
In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in n***a form. One day in rehearsal he says n***er instead of n***a and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction.
In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used n***er over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her.

Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor moment.
Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.)

For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said..
Voice:What do you see?
Richard:All colors of people doing everything.
Voice: Do you see any *******?
Richard: ...No...
Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any.
Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ******.

I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth.

For what it's worth, I think your grandmother would be proud of you!!

egslim · 29th October 2007, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by jimtron

My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it.

I agree that everyone has the right to be offended, as opposed to how some believe they have the right NOT to be offended. On the other hand, I do consider it unwise to allow any word to have that much power over you, it makes one vulnerable to manipulation.

Darth Rotor · 29th October 2007, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Do you mean the language of the first album like the insult posted above, or does someone have the comedic skill to make that album today? If it's the former then I think they could. Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill.

Good point.

Quote:

This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him. =snip=
The album cover? Sadly no. We've become to PC for things like that. Remember that Job interview bit on Saturday Night Live with Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase? I've seen that episode on reruns but they cut that scene out.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. That skit put its finger on the race issue, then poked it in the eye and gave it a wedgie in a way that worked both as "making a point" and getting some laughs. I am sorry to see the censorship of an excellent skit.

We, as a society, seem to be losing our sense of humor.

(Yeah, I realize that's a bit of an overstatement.)

DR

Big Les · 30th October 2007, 05:05 AM

Anyone who's seen Shaun of the Dead knows that one of the funniest lines is "'sup ******!" delivered by a white man to some other white people.

On paper, that sounds terrible, but in context, it's not only hilarious but perfectly acceptable, I would wager, to most. This is because it's self-deprecating - it's an overweight white guy pretending that he's a "gangsta" and implying that the group of staid middle-class white people are too. Which is patently ridiculous. As if that wasn't obvious enough, he delivers the line in a falsetto voice. The point is made that he's somewhat apart from the others, and lacking in self-censorship, but also not necessarily a racist. The same character also uses the "C" word, again to mark him out as someone who doesn't really care what other people think about him, and to add strain to the relationship between the main character, this character, and the others.

I can see that one could choose to take offence at this subversion of both the offensive and acceptable (ie internally-used amongst black people) versions of the word, but only if they really want to be. I can also see how racists would find it just as funny, for their own sick reasons. You could even argue that the character is de facto a racist, but I wouldn't agree with this. He's unafraid to use racist terminology; there's a difference there, and not enough data on which to base the conclusion that the character is "a racist", or would even use the same joke in the company of black people.

Objectively, it's just an amusing observation on how taboo words are used in society. In any case I agree with the comments above about art being a mirror held up to society. Let people who want to use taboo words use them, and show themselves for who they are as a result. Context is all important - who's saying it, when, where, and for what reason.

jimtron · 30th October 2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

That's pretty much what I was getting at. That skit put its finger on the race issue, then poked it in the eye and gave it a wedgie in a way that worked both as "making a point" and getting some laughs. I am sorry to see the censorship of an excellent skit.

We, as a society, seem to be losing our sense of humor.

(Yeah, I realize that's a bit of an overstatement.)

When SNL started it was a very low budget show that wasn't at first paid much attention to. Now it's a huge, very profitable franchise. The sketch getting cut might have had more to do with a corporate decision not to offend advertisers. I guess that's still a case of "PC," but I have a feeling it's more about money than anything else.

I don't think our society is losing its sense of humor. I do think Hollywood and TV suck in a big way, and I think that's at least partly because more than ever studios are about heeding formulas and the bottom line. But there are great comedians and humorous books and movies out there--just not so much in the mainstream.

And there are popular humorists like Sarah Silverman who have very un-PC material. Also Sacha Baron Cohen (aka Borat).

gumboot · 6th May 2008, 01:34 AM

Here in New Zealand a lot of Maori youth have attempted to "own" this particular word, much in the same way as black people in the USA. They express their offence if you call them this word.

What's funny about this is that to the best of my knowledge Maori were never called "n***ers" and they certainly never were slaves (except amongst each other of course).

I couldn't care less who I offend, especially not with what particular words I use. And I invite you to use whatever word you want to use in talking to me. I can promise you I will not be offended.

Architect · 6th May 2008, 01:46 AM

I seem to remember the US mods being very puzzled when Brits here objected to a poster using the term "wog". Clearly only American racist terms are insulting......

gtc · 6th May 2008, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I couldn't care less who I offend, especially not with what particular words I use. And I invite you to use whatever word you want to use in talking to me. I can promise you I will not be offended.

When you make a name for yourself in the film industry, we will claim you as an Aussie.

bigred · 6th May 2008, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

That's because the only people have heard of them are old.

You're either very young or live under a rock.

Quote:

Not only that but a five minute search on wikipedia shows you are wrong/ignorant.

I guess that makes also makes sense to you in some way. It took a lot less time to correctly ascertain you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, but whatever.

Anyway....

I think something people miss is that when black people use the term (ie in a negative way), they aren't ripping on someone else for being black; they're ripping on them for the way they are acting (this explains Prior's African experience)....and more and more others are using it/meaning it that way too. Unforunately, many don't "get" (or won't accept) this and the intent-is-everything is swimming upstream. Basically, if such words aren't going to go away, I wish they would at least "morph" in that direction.

That aside, again, my main thing would be to see consistency vs hypocrisy, and 86 the friggin hypersensitivity BS already.

19th October 2007, 07:39 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	(ed) Rapper to name new album with the n-word http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title I really must say that if it wasn't for rap music and movies about the KKK, this word would vanish from our lexicon. Some argue that they are taking the power from the word and using it in a new context. Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never.

19th October 2007, 07:40 PM	#2
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by parky76 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title I really must say that if it wasn't for rap music and movies about the KKK, this word would vanish from our lexicon. Some argue that they are taking the power from the word and using it in a new context. Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never. Thank you, I've been looking for a way to phrase what I found lacking in that argument. eta: point made even better here (NSFW): http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/2007/...ng-the-n-word/
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19th October 2007, 11:12 PM	#4
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n*as, once more. Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are... The word should be abolished/banned. It's our word, you've used it enough. That word is ok in certain situations. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. The word should be abolished/banned** This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?" It's our word, you've used it enough This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White. That word is ok in certain situations. Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A N*S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada."* I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n*a not ner. ... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples. In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in na form. One day in rehearsal he says ner instead of na and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction. In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used ner over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her. Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor* moment. Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.) For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said.. Voice:What do you see? Richard:All colors of people doing everything. Voice: Do you see any *****? Richard: ...No... Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any. Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ****. I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth.
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19th October 2007, 11:55 PM	#5
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Originally Posted by parky76 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/...as_album_title Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never. For good reason. I don't think the four letter anti-semitic word that starts with k will lose its power anytime soon either. There's a reason these words have power, because they're not just words. They're symbols of very real and often violent hatred.
	__________________

20th October 2007, 02:17 AM	#7
skeptifem is not beauty 2K compliant Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,259	Originally Posted by Redtail Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n*as, once more. Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are... The word should be abolished/banned. It's our word, you've used it enough. That word is ok in certain situations. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. The word should be abolished/banned** This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?" It's our word, you've used it enough This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White. That word is ok in certain situations. Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A N*S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada."* I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n*a not ner. ... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples. In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in na form. One day in rehearsal he says ner instead of na and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction. In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used ner over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her. Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor* moment. Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.) For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said.. Voice:What do you see? Richard:All colors of people doing everything. Voice: Do you see any *****? Richard: ...No... Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any. Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ******. I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth. good post
	__________________

19th October 2007, 08:09 PM	#3
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	I'm on principle against all double standards of any kind but this is one case where the double standard is sad and unfortunate but- sadly - understandable. It's an ironic example of the chickens coming home to roast that white people, in effect, can't say it now.

20th October 2007, 02:11 AM	#6
Sir Robin Goodfellow Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estevan (wear da fox hat) Posts: 2,751	Words can elicit such strong reactions in people. I don't blame anyone from any ethnicity for being offended or feeling uncomfortable around words like these. These words represent the worst people have to offer each other.

20th October 2007, 06:32 AM	#8
Wheezebucket Master Cylinder Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mr. Belvedere's House (in Seattle) Posts: 1,493	I love me some Nas, so I'm sure I'll buy it (well, steal it off the internet, anyway). I like this part - "And to my older people who don't know who Nas is and who don't know what a street disciple is, stay outta this (expletive) conversation. We'll talk to you when we're ready."
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25th October 2007, 10:28 AM	#9
Zygar Lex Luthor's Evil Twin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,609	Originally Posted by Redtail That word is ok in certain situations. Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A N*S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada."* I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people. I agree wholeheartedly. That episode floored me with how brilliant and appropriate it was. And your whole post was excellent.
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25th October 2007, 10:36 AM	#10
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,286	Originally Posted by Redtail Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n**as, once more. A good post.* Comment on Richard Prior. When I was in high school, I bought my first Richard Prior record. It was called "That N - i - g - g - e - r's Crazy." It was funny as hell. (His insult to a vampire stalking the 'hood in one skit: "I hope you get sickle cell, m*f!" ) It was recorded on the set of the TV show Soul Train*. His following album was called "Was It Something I Said?" The cover had Richard tied up on a post, and a half dozen folks dressed as clansmen, torches raised. Could anyone make that album, or the other one's album cover, these days? If not, why not? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

25th October 2007, 10:51 AM	#11
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Quote: The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n*a not n*er. ... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples. Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap.
	Last edited by technoextreme; 25th October 2007 at 11:01 AM.

25th October 2007, 12:59 PM	#12
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	Originally Posted by technoextreme Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap. Correct.Niggard is derived from a Norse word for a greedy,selfish Ebenezer Scrooge type person. It has no racial connotations,though I don't use it because it is too easily misinterpreted.

25th October 2007, 01:01 PM	#13
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,543	Am I the only one who has noticed that the more "aware" of (ie hypersensitive about) this word our society becomes, the more easily people are offended by it? Coincedence? I doubt it. You can't even say the word (ie not calling someone that but as a joke or sarcasticaly, or even to just discuss the word itself) nowdays without people freaking out. Even here at JREF, which prides itself on free speech, free thought etc, it is one of the very few banned words. The race card's power is at an all-time high - to the point of lunacy. And even then, I'd be a lot more "tolerant" of all that absurd hypersensitivity if it weren't for the massive hypocrisy, double-standards and two-wrongs-make-a-right boneheadedness surrounding not just that but the whole "race issue thing" in general. You can say honky, cracker, whop, mick, spic, chink (etc) and the most you'll get from most people is a reaction of mild distaste - if that. Want to name a movie "White Men Can't Jump?" No problem. Heck it's even funny. hahahaha. Nothing racist there either. But heaven forbid you should even say...gasp......"THE WORD" For crying out loud: racism is either ugly or it isn't. If you hate racial slurs, it makes no sense whatsover to freak about some but casually dismiss or even laugh at others, esp in this day and age. For all the lip service given to "equality," I'm not seeing it.
	Last edited by bigred; 25th October 2007 at 01:06 PM.

25th October 2007, 02:07 PM	#14
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 3,670	Im with James Randi on this one Words are not magic, get over it...ESPECIALLY if you are going to use it constantly If you call me a you know what Ill call you a you know what right back to your face deal with it
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25th October 2007, 02:18 PM	#15
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Quote: You can say honky, cracker, whop, mick, spic, chink (etc) and the most you'll get from most people is a reaction of mild distaste - if that. That's because the only people have heard of them are old. Not only that but a five minute search on wikipedia shows you are wrong/ignorant.

25th October 2007, 05:19 PM	#16
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Im with James Randi on this one Words are not magic, get over it...ESPECIALLY if you are going to use it constantly If you call me a you know what Ill call you a you know what right back to your face deal with it Words are not magic, but they can be very offensive. What if a mother was walking with her 7 year old daughter, and someone started saying very obscene, sexual remarks to the child (with no threat, implied or otherwise, of physical harm). If the mother and daughter were offended, are they overly "PC"? Why should the mother be offended--after all, they're just words, they don't have magic powers. What if someone went to a Holocaust museum and started using anti-semitic epithets (such as the 4 letter one beginning with "K")? (Again, I'm not talking about anything physical, just using words). Would other patrons of the museum be overreacting if they were offended? To say, "words don't have magical powers" is a strawman, IMHO. Of course they don't. But words can stir up very real feelings about very real hatred, violence, and oppression. Words have impact--if they didn't, we wouldn't have great literature. Words convey our ideas and feelings and attitudes and viewpoints. My view is, who am I to say who should or shouldn't be offended by something? I happen to enjoy some humor that would be considered very offensive to some people. But I respect that they find it offensive. Everyone finds something offensive, even Howard Stern and Bill Maher. As for the so-called double standard: I don't see that as a problem. If a gay man calls another gay man "fag," that has a different meaning than if a homophobic lunkhead called one of them that. When a black person calls another black person the n word, that has a much different meaning and context than if a KKK member calls one of them that. I'm for freedom of speech. If Michael Richards or Don Imus want to make racist remarks, though I may disagree with them, they have that right. And Al Sharpton (and the many others, both black and white) has a right to express his response. If I'm offended by something, who is anyone else to tell me that I shouldn't be offended?
	__________________ Last edited by jimtron; 25th October 2007 at 05:21 PM.

25th October 2007, 07:50 PM	#17
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Comment on Richard Prior. When I was in high school, I bought my first Richard Prior record. It was called "That N - i - g - g - e - r's Crazy." It was funny as hell. (His insult to a vampire stalking the 'hood in one skit: "I hope you get sickle cell, m*f!" ) It was recorded on the set of the TV show Soul Train*. His following album was called "Was It Something I Said?" The cover had Richard tied up on a post, and a half dozen folks dressed as clansmen, torches raised. Could anyone make that album, or the other one's album cover, these days? If not, why not? DR Do you mean the language of the first album like the insult posted above, or does someone have the comedic skill to make that album today? If it's the former then I think they could. Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill. This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him. That's my 2 cents unless I've misunderstood the question in which case sorry. The album cover? Sadly no. We've become to PC for things like that. Remember that Job interview bit on Saturday Night Live with Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase? I've seen that episode on reruns but they cut that scene out.
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25th October 2007, 08:03 PM	#18
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by technoextreme Niggard isn't a racial epithet. It has no origin in race. I discovered that because I incorrectly spelled the racial epithet and found the definition for cheap. I think there is some confusion and it may very well be on my part. I'm not saying niggard I'm saying nia which is n*er with the "er" dropped kind of like some one from "Bahston pahkin da ca" it's a dialect thing. If you were just pointing out that niggard isn't a slur then never mind sorry. With that said if one were to constantly use niggard or niggardly looking at the only Black person in the room with a silly smirk on their face is just obnoxious.
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25th October 2007, 10:02 PM	#19
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 3,670	Originally Posted by jimtron If I'm offended by something, who is anyone else to tell me that I shouldn't be offended? Who says you shouldn't? All Im saying is you dont have the right NOT to be offended EVERYTHING is offensive to someone Name three things that are not offensive to anyone
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25th October 2007, 10:37 PM	#20
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Who says you shouldn't? My impression from the OP and other posts here, is that black people shouldn't be offended by the N word: Quote: Well, I'll believe the word has lost its power when I can walk up to a black man and call him this without him being horribly offended...which I expect will be never. The quote above reminds me of a Chris Rock joke. He brings up how some white people complain that it's OK for blacks to call each other the "N" word, but not OK for whites to call blacks that. He describes a very wealthy white man, on an enormous yacht, with gorgeous supermodels on each arm. He says, "Now if I could only call black people N******!" Why would you want to "walk up to a black man and call him (the "N" word)"? Quote: EVERYTHING is offensive to someone I completely agree--that's why I said the following in my previous post: Quote: Everyone finds something offensive, even Howard Stern and Bill Maher. My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it.
	__________________ Last edited by jimtron; 25th October 2007 at 10:41 PM.

25th October 2007, 10:53 PM	#21
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 3,670	Originally Posted by jimtron I completely agree--that's why I said the following in my previous post:My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it. Ahh, I get you. The dicey part for me is when people turn their being offended into laws to limit the freedoms of others, or to force them to do stupid thing. Probably my favorite local one is "We live in the desert and laws are in place to conserve water, however, your not having grass offends me. You MUST destroy all native plant and animal life on your property and plant grass, or you WILL be fined"
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25th October 2007, 11:07 PM	#22
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Quote: The dicey part for me is when people turn their being offended into laws to limit the freedoms of others, or to force them to do stupid thing. I agree--I'm a strong proponent of free speech. I'm against legislating morality. I think it's ridiculous to consider "banning" the "N" word, or censoring books where it appears, etc. On the other hand, if someone says they're offended by the word, I respect that--who am I to say they shouldn't be offended? Michael Richards has the right to call members of his audience n******, and Jerry Seinfeld has the right to publicly call Richards' behavior "extremely offensive." If some people don't find Richards' tirade to be offensive; I respect that (and disagree). Many people were offended by the tirade, and I don't think it's anyone's place to say they shouldn't be.
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27th October 2007, 02:03 PM	#23
cloudshipsrule Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,171	Quote: Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill. This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him. Kramer?

27th October 2007, 03:00 PM	#24
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by cloudshipsrule Kramer? BLASPHEMY!!!
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

29th October 2007, 08:08 AM	#25
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,979	Originally Posted by Redtail Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A N*S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada."* I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people. Great post. But people of far lesser intelligence, maturity and knowledge, apparently like the creator of "The Boondocks"...should never, ever try to put words into the mouth of someone like Martin Luther King. He tried to here, with obviously very little comedic value...and only exposed himself.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,979	__________________ EG

29th October 2007, 08:16 AM	#26
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by Redtail Ahhhh... Once more into the breech my n*as, once more. Ok, You have to understand that there are several schools of thought on this in the Black community, including the afore mentioned "the more you use the word the less power it has" theory. These are... The word should be abolished/banned. It's our word, you've used it enough. That word is ok in certain situations. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. The word should be abolished/banned** This school is the one who will try to get Huckleberry Finn pulled from the shelves. Bottom line is that's the way people talked. To ignore the use of that word throughout American history is denying our history. Also, Huck is art. As Tadashi Suzuki (creator of an acting method I studied in grad school) said, "True art hold a mirror up to society. It shows the glory and the sickness and everything in between. If you don't like the sickness fine, but how is breaking the mirror going to cure it?" It's our word, you've used it enough This is close to what EMM said earlier. Yes it's a double standard but too bad it's a deserved double standard. I don't agree with this but it's really hard to argue against it. Yes, Black people are "allowed" to use, well pick a White slur, but when a White person from a lower income family gets a scholarship to go to College it isn't automatically assumed that they run a 4.2 40, have a 50" vertical, or just got the shot because they are White. That word is ok in certain situations. Best example of this I know of (and one I agree with) is an episode of Boondocks in which Dr. Martin Luther King goes into a coma when he's shot and comes to in 2005. After observing Black culture in today's world he decides to address the Black community and the event is hyped like a gangsta rap concert. He arrives and the crowd behaves as if they are at such a concert and Dr. King gets fed up and yells "WILL YOU IGNORANT A N*S SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! I know you don't want to hear me say that word. It's the ugliest word in the English language, but that's what I see here today. Is this what we took bricks to the head for!?!?... " and then he goes onto list many of the problems in the Black community ending with "I've seen the mountain top and you may get there one day... But I won't be with you... I'm moving to Canada."* I show all of my classes this episode and believe that it should be required watching for Black people. The "a" is ok "er" is wrong. Note the "spelling" of the first sentence of this post. n*a not ner. ... It's hard to explain. Ok I'm an actor so I'll give to instances from shows as examples. In the first show almost everyone played 2-3 roles. and one was a group of slaves. One of the slaves was White and all of us used the N-word in na form. One day in rehearsal he says ner instead of na and it was the first time we reacted. Not violently or even angrily we laughed but it got a reaction. In the second show an actress I'd worked with since day one of grad school had to used ner over and over with venom. She is a great actress and a beautiful person and that word was just horrible coming from her. Now i know very little of the above is rational, but this is not a rational subject. This is an emotional subject, for both sides. Bottom line is that if Blacks feel the word is ok for any reason, that will not change until they as an individual has what I call a Richard Pryor* moment. Mods, I am typing the full word here. I don't know if the system takes it out our you do but if it's you I ask that you leave the word intact due to the point of this passage and context. I accept full responsibility. (If it's the system it's fine I just thought I'd try.) For those that don't know Richard Pryor was a Black comedian in America who was known for saying the N-word until one day he was in an airport in Africa and an internal voice said.. Voice:What do you see? Richard:All colors of people doing everything. Voice: Do you see any *****? Richard: ...No... Voice: You know why? Because there aren't any. Richard:And it hit me like a shot, man. I started cryin and thought "Yeah I been here three weeks and I haven't even said it... I haven't even thought it. And it made me say Oh my God I've been wrong. I gotta regroup. I ain't never gonna call another Black man ****. I had this moment, it was in Iceland. The only time i use it now is on stage/screen. Take this post for what it's worth. For what it's worth, I think your grandmother would be proud of you!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

29th October 2007, 08:34 AM	#27
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856	Originally Posted by jimtron My point is that we're all offended by certain things, and it's no one's business to judge whether we really should be offended or not. I'm not for stifling free speech, but if someone says they're offended by something, so be it. I agree that everyone has the right to be offended, as opposed to how some believe they have the right NOT to be offended. On the other hand, I do consider it unwise to allow any word to have that much power over you, it makes one vulnerable to manipulation.
egslim Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,856

29th October 2007, 10:19 AM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,286	Originally Posted by Redtail Do you mean the language of the first album like the insult posted above, or does someone have the comedic skill to make that album today? If it's the former then I think they could. Edginess still has a place in comedy but sadly to day the edginess seems to be more abundant and appreciated than actual comedic skill. Good point. Quote: This brings us to the latter in which case I say hell no. Granted I've given it only a little thought but I can't think of anyone that could pull it off like him. =snip= The album cover? Sadly no. We've become to PC for things like that. Remember that Job interview bit on Saturday Night Live with Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase? I've seen that episode on reruns but they cut that scene out. That's pretty much what I was getting at. That skit put its finger on the race issue, then poked it in the eye and gave it a wedgie in a way that worked both as "making a point" and getting some laughs. I am sorry to see the censorship of an excellent skit. We, as a society, seem to be losing our sense of humor. (Yeah, I realize that's a bit of an overstatement.) DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 29th October 2007 at 10:23 AM.

30th October 2007, 05:05 AM	#29
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5,004	Anyone who's seen Shaun of the Dead knows that one of the funniest lines is "'sup *****!" delivered by a white man to some other white people. On paper, that sounds terrible, but in context, it's not only hilarious but perfectly acceptable, I would wager, to most. This is because it's self-deprecating - it's an overweight white guy pretending that he's a "gangsta" and implying that the group of staid middle-class white people are too. Which is patently ridiculous. As if that wasn't obvious enough, he delivers the line in a falsetto voice. The point is made that he's somewhat apart from the others, and lacking in self-censorship, but also not necessarily a racist. The same character also uses the "C" word, again to mark him out as someone who doesn't really care what other people think about him, and to add strain to the relationship between the main character, this character, and the others. I can see that one could choose to take offence at this subversion of both the offensive and acceptable (ie internally-used amongst black people) versions of the word, but only if they really want* to be. I can also see how racists would find it just as funny, for their own sick reasons. You could even argue that the character is de facto a racist, but I wouldn't agree with this. He's unafraid to use racist terminology; there's a difference there, and not enough data on which to base the conclusion that the character is "a racist", or would even use the same joke in the company of black people. Objectively, it's just an amusing observation on how taboo words are used in society. In any case I agree with the comments above about art being a mirror held up to society. Let people who want to use taboo words use them, and show themselves for who they are as a result. Context is all important - who's saying it, when, where, and for what reason.
	__________________ "Feeling you’ve done something is not quite the same as the empirical scientific proof." -Stephen Fry The BS Historian

30th October 2007, 04:51 PM	#30
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,966	Quote: That's pretty much what I was getting at. That skit put its finger on the race issue, then poked it in the eye and gave it a wedgie in a way that worked both as "making a point" and getting some laughs. I am sorry to see the censorship of an excellent skit. We, as a society, seem to be losing our sense of humor. (Yeah, I realize that's a bit of an overstatement.) When SNL started it was a very low budget show that wasn't at first paid much attention to. Now it's a huge, very profitable franchise. The sketch getting cut might have had more to do with a corporate decision not to offend advertisers. I guess that's still a case of "PC," but I have a feeling it's more about money than anything else. I don't think our society is losing its sense of humor. I do think Hollywood and TV suck in a big way, and I think that's at least partly because more than ever studios are about heeding formulas and the bottom line. But there are great comedians and humorous books and movies out there--just not so much in the mainstream. And there are popular humorists like Sarah Silverman who have very un-PC material. Also Sacha Baron Cohen (aka Borat).
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6th May 2008, 01:34 AM	#31
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,127	Here in New Zealand a lot of Maori youth have attempted to "own" this particular word, much in the same way as black people in the USA. They express their offence if you call them this word. What's funny about this is that to the best of my knowledge Maori were never called "n***ers" and they certainly never were slaves (except amongst each other of course). I couldn't care less who I offend, especially not with what particular words I use. And I invite you to use whatever word you want to use in talking to me. I can promise you I will not be offended.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

6th May 2008, 01:46 AM	#32
Architect Chief Punkah Wallah Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 8,478	I seem to remember the US mods being very puzzled when Brits here objected to a poster using the term "wog". Clearly only American racist terms are insulting......
	__________________ When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies. James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party

6th May 2008, 05:23 AM	#33
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by gumboot I couldn't care less who I offend, especially not with what particular words I use. And I invite you to use whatever word you want to use in talking to me. I can promise you I will not be offended. When you make a name for yourself in the film industry, we will claim you as an Aussie.
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6th May 2008, 06:53 AM	#34
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,543	Originally Posted by technoextreme That's because the only people have heard of them are old. You're either very young or live under a rock. Quote: Not only that but a five minute search on wikipedia shows you are wrong/ignorant. I guess that makes also makes sense to you in some way. It took a lot less time to correctly ascertain you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, but whatever. Anyway.... I think something people miss is that when black people use the term (ie in a negative way), they aren't ripping on someone else for being black; they're ripping on them for the way they are acting (this explains Prior's African experience)....and more and more others are using it/meaning it that way too. Unforunately, many don't "get" (or won't accept) this and the intent-is-everything is swimming upstream. Basically, if such words aren't going to go away, I wish they would at least "morph" in that direction. That aside, again, my main thing would be to see consistency vs hypocrisy, and 86 the friggin hypersensitivity BS already.
	Last edited by bigred; 6th May 2008 at 06:55 AM.