|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
24th October 2007, 05:15 PM | #1 | |||
Striped Shapeshifting Reptoid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,619
|
A new debunk of the WTC "power down"
RKOwens4 has posted a new video on Youtube debunking the power down claim made by Scott Forbes. This is just the latest ( that I have seen) in a series of very well done videos explaining away the falacies of the trooth movement.
|
|||
__________________
"Nuts!" - General Anthony C. McAuliffe |
||||
24th October 2007, 05:24 PM | #3 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,871
|
The "power-down" is one of the dumbest claims I've seen.
Never mind the fact that it doesn't address the other 1 1/2 towers or WTC7...the mere notion that you can rig up even 50 floors of a 110 story building in 36 hours is bloody absurd. |
24th October 2007, 05:43 PM | #4 |
Striped Shapeshifting Reptoid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,619
|
|
__________________
"Nuts!" - General Anthony C. McAuliffe |
|
24th October 2007, 05:47 PM | #5 |
Striped Shapeshifting Reptoid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,619
|
|
__________________
"Nuts!" - General Anthony C. McAuliffe |
|
24th October 2007, 05:51 PM | #6 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 730
|
I've always wondered how Scott Forbes even came to his conclusion of half of the tower being powered down. Did he just make it up?
|
__________________
|
|
24th October 2007, 06:54 PM | #7 |
Cold-hearted skeptic
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,084
|
|
__________________
Has Anyone Seen A Realistice Explanation For Free Fall Of The Towers? - May 26, 2006 - Sep 25, 2008. Gone but not forgotten. Shameless plug for my website: Digging Apollo - Excavating the digital archaeology of the Apollo program. |
|
24th October 2007, 07:18 PM | #8 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
|
I never really understood this argument or why bring it up. It's one of the most easiest ones to counter.
All you need is point to the J. Hudson building, say it's the largest steel frame building to be bought down by demos and it took 7 months to rig the empty building. After mentioning this, tell them the Twin Towers are 3 times that height. The number of times I've seen this dumb argument bought up can be counted on one hand with a missing thumb. |
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
|
24th October 2007, 07:19 PM | #9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,865
|
|
__________________
"Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken |
|
24th October 2007, 07:58 PM | #10 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 921
|
I have proof that whole upper 50 floors of the South Tower were NOT powered down during the timeframe specified by Scott Forbes. Maybe the floors he was on (giving him the benefit of the doubt), but certainly not all of them, much less the other two towers.
I'll post the evidence here when I have time. |
24th October 2007, 08:05 PM | #11 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
|
How could you down the upper half of South Tower without downing the TV transmitters?
|
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
|
24th October 2007, 08:09 PM | #12 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
|
|
__________________
Is there a God? Find the answer at The Official God FAQ. |
|
24th October 2007, 08:10 PM | #13 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
|
Having been involved in several power downs can tell you that it is major operation
Multiple emails are sent out warning everybody what is going on, equipment which has to be powered must be isolated. That only one person, Scott Forbes, was aware of this is totally amazing. What about the electricians? Considering that many of the tenants were financial or securities which had 24 hour operations someone had to know . |
24th October 2007, 08:22 PM | #14 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
|
|
__________________
"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
|
24th October 2007, 08:25 PM | #15 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
|
|
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
|
24th October 2007, 09:11 PM | #16 |
Downsitting Citizen
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,078
|
|
__________________
"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard |
|
24th October 2007, 10:17 PM | #17 |
Striped Shapeshifting Reptoid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,619
|
Part of the evidence he presents (briefly) in the video shows the towers well illuminated during the time in question.
I have to admit that I was(shamelessly ) putting in a plug for RKOwens4, though. My impression is that he puts a lot of research into finding those obscure and forgotten shots that put the subject at hand to rest. |
__________________
"Nuts!" - General Anthony C. McAuliffe |
|
24th October 2007, 11:11 PM | #18 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 921
|
Old Tiger Club: I don't think RKOwens is necessarily claiming that the shot of the lit WTC was taken that weekend. I have tried to find photos of the period in question and haven't found any confirmed examples yet.
|
24th October 2007, 11:14 PM | #19 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,431
|
I think the point he was making was that if, for some reason, half of a tower was dark, there would be pictures, as it would have been unusual.
|
24th October 2007, 11:29 PM | #20 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 921
|
Okay, here is what I found.
There are at least two witnesses who recall the Observation Deck being open (with power) during the same time-frame that Scott Forbes claims the upper half of WTC2 was powered down. One website has a personal account by Melissa Papke who relates her visit to the Observation Deck on that "power-down" weekend (9/8/01). She visited the WTC with her friends late in the day, after the last ferry to the Statue of Liberty had departed (i.e. squarely within the period Scott Forbes placed the power downs). She related this: "Brian held my hands in his and stared into my eyes trying to keep me calm as the express elevator climbed and climbed to the observation deck on the 107th floor. We walked around, looked through the telescopes, watched a movie on the history of the buildings, and even pressed a couple of commemorative pennies in one of those little machines". Clearly, there was power on the 107th Floor at that time. Another blog presents this photo of a ticket to the Observation Deck during the very time that Forbes claims there was no power to that part of the building: Also, there was a public free outdoor festival at 7:00 pm on 9/8/2001 in the World Trade Center Plaza between the two buildings (New York Times, September 7, 2001, E-3), featuring the Twyla Tharp dance troupe. So if there was a power down and massive preparation for building demolition, it would've been in the midst of this public event. I still would love to see a photo of the buildings at night on 9/8/01 as that would clearly show if any floors, and which floors, experienced a shut-down of power. |
25th October 2007, 01:49 AM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
|
You might look again at the Naudet film. They kept referring to the towers as a back ground, with time stamps.
|
25th October 2007, 02:36 AM | #22 |
Dreaming of unicorns
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
|
To concur with Mangoose
My friends were up the towers during this time, Scott Forbes has been given the oppurtunity to modify his claim to only the floors he was on but he fails. He is a woo and is lying. He goes to truther meetings in the UK and has done another interview for AJ recently even though it is claimed he is keeping his head down because he is being harrassed at work. |
__________________
Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. |
|
25th October 2007, 07:13 AM | #23 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
|
|
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
|
25th October 2007, 07:24 AM | #24 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
|
Even though the powerdown isn't a good argument to begin with, it's rather interesting that we now have evidence proving that once again, the 9/11 deniers are using fraudulent sources.
|
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
|
25th October 2007, 07:35 AM | #25 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
|
|
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
|
25th October 2007, 08:11 AM | #26 |
Muse
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 921
|
Thanks Benburch!
Originally Posted by leftysergeant
I don't recall seeing time stamps on the film themselves, and I just checked the 9/11 DVD and again I don't see any video the towers on the evening of 9/8/01. The wonderful shot of them lit at night at 20:27 was dated to 9/3/01. Then there is a shot across the water that appears at 22:08, but it is undated though it appears immediately before 9/11/01, and I suspect it might be stock footage. |
25th October 2007, 08:20 AM | #27 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,723
|
Njslim is right on the money here. I work in an office building much smaller than the towers, but any power downs (even for just a single floor) require multiple notifications & sign offs by anyone that may be affected. We even have extra people on call during those times just in case there are problems. The paper trail for a multi-floor power down would be enormous. The fact that Mr. Forbes has been unable to produce any documentation of such speaks volumes more than his claims. |
__________________
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen -Einstein |
|
25th October 2007, 12:44 PM | #28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,397
|
What he said. I managed 24x7 IT ops in 4 big buildings in Manhattan over the years. Just doing paperwork to get to the loading docks any time or for freight elevator access off hours gets lots of people involved. There are always other trades around and everyone notices strangers, if only to protect union turf. Even powered-down, nobody gets into IT areas without a tenant's IT person on hand. tenants have their own alarm services that don't depend on the building security system
|
25th October 2007, 12:47 PM | #29 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,538
|
Any any power outage of a major Bank's IT infrastructure would require the bank to transfer operations to its emergency site. No way you can shut down a bank even on a weekend.
|
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system? |
|
25th October 2007, 01:54 PM | #30 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 730
|
I seem to remember hearing and seeing a video that was filmed that weekend, clearly showing lights on the top floors of the South Tower. I think it was a music video, but I can't remember for sure.
|
__________________
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:19 PM | #31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,367
|
This is absurd - nothing has been "debunked" in that video.
For starters, there are only a handful of workers who are especially sensitive to a power-down over the weekend, some of which are server administrators (or DBAs). On top of that, it's rather convenient to say "nobody else reported it" when 3,000 people died that day, a good portion of which worked in the twin towers. Unless you have an eyewitness offering eyewitness testimony that directly contradicts the claims of Scott Forbes, you've debunked precisely nothing. |
25th October 2007, 02:22 PM | #32 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,367
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:25 PM | #33 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,871
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:26 PM | #34 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 810
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:29 PM | #35 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,367
|
Seriously, an email proves nothing. Even if he did produce one, not even I would acknowledge that it proves anything one way or the other. Give me about 10 minutes and I could paste an email (with full headers) into this thread that shows GWB inviting me to go golfing with him & Saddam in Antarctica next Tuesday. |
25th October 2007, 02:30 PM | #36 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,367
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:32 PM | #37 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 810
|
Indeed you could, and not only would that email contain the source email address and therefore a name to investigate, it would also reveal IP addresses and server software. Do you happen to know what internal version of which MTA people in the towers used?
Faking an email is one thing, reliably faking an email is another. |
25th October 2007, 02:33 PM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 21,050
|
|
25th October 2007, 02:36 PM | #39 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
|
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
25th October 2007, 02:38 PM | #40 |
Dreaming of unicorns
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
|
My friends were up the observation deck that sunday, you need more than lights for that, I have been up there also and I know what they had up there. Strange not one person has come along and said the observation deck was closed that weekend?
It was a very popular attraction when i was there, must have been thousands a day. Unless you are calling me and my friends liars then there is your proof he is lying about a total power down above the 50th floor (his actual claim). |
__________________
Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|