SF, defended from its fans...

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 10:35 AM

Bit of a rant this, but hopefully it will start an interesting ding-dong.

Speaking as a great and long-time fan of the genre, I’ve just got to know – why are so many of us such incredible dorks? How did such an enormous flock of socially underdeveloped, borderline autists come to congregate around the books, films and TV that I love? And more importantly, how the hell do we stop it?

It doesn’t seem to happen anywhere else. Nobody feels the need to publish, or even discuss, the engineering schematics of Manderlay. There appears to be remarkably little Bleak House fan fiction. There is no collectible range of Harry Angstrom action figures (Rabbit is posable!), and if there were I suspect that even the most rabid Updike fan would have little interest in them.

It irritates me, partially because the general contempt for SF comes from this – it’s no good blaming 'closed mindedness' when the public face of Science Fiction is so deeply embarrassing.

Mainly, however, it’s because I believe it to be the cause of the horrifying poverty of imagination from which the film and TV arm of the genre in particular suffer, On the one hand, the whole ‘nerd movement’ seems to be rather narrow minded, offering vocal and often distressingly angry opposition to things they percieve as ‘off-canon’. On the other they appear to have almost no critical faculties, being perfectly happy to consume endless shonkily-written ‘novelisations’ and obsessive episode-by-episode breakdowns of their favourite TV series.

Is that fair? Or not? If not, why not? If so, what’s going on?

Wolfman · 29th October 2007, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

Bit of a rant this, but hopefully it will start an interesting ding-dong.

Speaking as a great and long-time fan of the genre, I’ve just got to know – why are so many of us such incredible dorks? How did such an enormous flock of socially underdeveloped, borderline autists come to congregate around the books, films and TV that I love? And more importantly, how the hell do we stop it?

It doesn’t seem to happen anywhere else. Nobody feels the need to publish, or even discuss, the engineering schematics of Manderlay. There appears to be remarkably little Bleak House fan fiction. There is no collectible range of Harry Angstrom action figures (Rabbit is posable!), and if there were I suspect that even the most rabid Updike fan would have little interest in them.

It irritates me, partially because the general contempt for SF comes from this – it’s no good blaming 'closed mindedness' when the public face of Science Fiction is so deeply embarrassing.

Mainly, however, it’s because I believe it to be the cause of the horrifying poverty of imagination from which the film and TV arm of the genre in particular suffer, On the one hand, the whole ‘nerd movement’ seems to be rather narrow minded, offering vocal and often distressingly angry opposition to things they percieve as ‘off-canon’. On the other they appear to have almost no critical faculties, being perfectly happy to consume endless shonkily-written ‘novelisations’ and obsessive episode-by-episode breakdowns of their favourite TV series.

Is that fair? Or not? If not, why not? If so, what’s going on?

*sigh*

I have to explain this again?!?

Millions of years ago, the evil galactic emperor Xenu gathered up aliens from numerous worlds who sought to oppose him, dropped them into volcanoes on earth, then dropped hydrogen bombs on them. Their spirits have roamed our planet ever since, and are the cause of all pain, suffering, confusion, mental illness, etc.

Science fiction is a subconscious reflection of the memories of these alien creatures; and sci-fi conventions, when people dress up, are actually one of the most obvious demonstrable truths of what the Honorable L. Ron Hubbard revealed all those many years ago -- it is a re-enactment of the lives and dreams of countless different alien species who now populate our minds.

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 11:52 AM

Why doesn't anybody tell me these things? If only this obvious, plausible theory had the publicity it deserves! Perhaps we could persuade some prominent celebrity to endorse it...

rcronk · 29th October 2007, 11:54 AM

Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them.

Or, the Hubbard thing.

Fnord · 29th October 2007, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

Why doesn't anybody tell me these things? If only this obvious, plausible theory had the publicity it deserves! Perhaps we could persuade some prominent celebrity to endorse it...

Yeah, we could call the hypothesis "Sciencefictiontheology" or maybe some shortened form thereof!

Never mind ... I made my saving throw, and my character sees through the illusion.

fuelair · 29th October 2007, 12:09 PM

If you have ever been to a recent (last 10 years or so) SF con and hit the gaming room(s), you would reconsider immediately your opinion of SF fans overall - the gamers make the dorkiest of the fans look like true social adepts!! Just in the matter of hygiene there is a hardcore difference.
Trekkies and Warties are pretty bad too just in a mildly different way.

But, as a dealer (huckster) I sell freely and of my own will to all!!! (Well, except to the gamers who do not come to deal/watch/read or buy, but only to game as long as they can/wherever they can - and wash not or rarely).

uruk · 29th October 2007, 12:27 PM

There are a certain breed of people who are born socialy inept. Social ineptitute leads to having extra alone time. This time is usualy spent on reading. The extra brain exercise leads to some deeper thinking about the world around you. This leads some to develope an interest in science.
The interest in science naturaly leads the person to the science fiction genra, since it is for the most part a literary genera and it combines the two things most people, who like science fiction, are interested . Gadgets and women with big metal boob protectors.

No since being socialy inept does not exclude you from the desire to socialize people who share the same interest tend to flock together because they have something incommon to talk about and break the ice.

Now having a little extra brain power and being interested in science and thus science fiction, AND having poorly developed social skills makes for some really bizzare debates about wether Wookies braid armpit hair or if Shanter and Stewart actually enjoyed wearing pantyhose while on horses in Startrek: Generations.

Others realize thier fellow bretherin are willing to pay cash through the nose to know how many toilets there are on a D7 Klingon battelcruiser or if the Tardis can actually make a long distance phone call.

it's basicaly what you get when to get a bunch of people together who share the same interests and want to socialize.

Fnord · 29th October 2007, 12:31 PM

Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention.

I have taken Gene Roddenberry's name in vain.

I have committed the apostasy of promoting the Fourth Law of Robotics, and in the name of Asimov.

I have adulterated a "Babylon V" roleplaying game with "AD&D" creatures from the lower planes.

I have canceled my subscriptions to "Analog" and "Astounding" magazines.

There are no books of "Dune" in my home.

I have taught my children to play "Everquest."

I have friends ... yes, father; friends! Real, honest, flesh-and-blood friends! And they like me! ... who publically deny and disavow any interest in the Science Fiction Channel and any movie with the word "Star" in its title.

Finally, father, I have traded my first-issue copy of "THX-1138" for a pirated copy of "Wizards."

What is my penance?

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by rcronk

Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them.

Or, the Hubbard thing.

See,this is my underlying worry with all this. Tom Disch, I think, called SF a 'fundamentally puerile medium', and it worries me that he might be globally correct. Do I just have to resign myself to being surrounded by literary tropes that are catnip to the helpless and immature (evasion of mortality, simplifed (perhaps even no) sexuality, limitless power...)? Am I even still attracted to these tropes - can a love of SF ever be truly psychologically healthy?

Darat · 29th October 2007, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention.

I have taken Gene Roddenberry's name in vain.

I have committed the apostasy of promoting the Fourth Law of Robotics, and in the name of Asimov.

I have adulterated a "Babylon V" roleplaying game with "AD&D" creatures from the lower planes.

I have canceled my subscriptions to "Analog" and "Astounding" magazines.

There are no books of "Dune" in my home.

I have taught my children to play "Everquest."

I have friends ... yes, father; friends! Real, honest, flesh-and-blood friends! And they like me! ... who publically deny and disavow any interest in the Science Fiction Channel and any movie with the word "Star" in its title.

Finally, father, I have traded my first-issue copy of "THX-1138" for a pirated copy of "Wizards."

What is my penance?

Analog and Astounding are the same magazine, the name Astounding was last used in the issue dated September 1960, in which it appeared faintly behind the new name of Analog...

(I am not a dork!)

rcronk · 29th October 2007, 01:14 PM

If it is an addiction, it could keep a person from maturing emotionally. Some of the effects SF addiction has on its users seem to be very similar to other addictions. These things all seem to provide an escape from reality to the point that the person rarely has to work through or deal with reality, keeping them stunted in their emotional growth.

I don't think the problem lies with SF as much as it lies with the person using SF as a drug. This conversation sounds a bit silly, but now that I'm looking at this, it really starts looking like an addiction for some people. I've worked with hundreds of addicts and many of them switch addictions (drugs, alcohol, pornography, etc.) and gaming and SF can provide an alternative addiction that is less guilt ridden, less expensive, slightly more socially acceptable, or (on the surface) less destructive. Even escaping into books can provide a similar detachment from reality for some of the addicts I've worked with. And it's usually never about the item being used as much as it is about the user of these items and the purpose for which they are using them. Even conspiracy theories can act as an escape or detachment from reality or even be a method of deriving false self worth through intellectual elitism, etc.

Or, the Hubbard thing.

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by uruk

There are a certain breed of people who are born socialy inept. Social ineptitute leads to having extra alone time. This time is usualy spent on reading. The extra brain exercise leads to some deeper thinking about the world around you. This leads some to develope an interest in science.
The interest in science naturaly leads the person to the science fiction genra, since it is for the most part a literary genera and it combines the two things most people, who like science fiction, are interested . Gadgets and women with big metal boob protectors.

No since being socialy inept does not exclude you from the desire to socialize people who share the same interest tend to flock together because they have something incommon to talk about and break the ice.

Now having a little extra brain power and being interested in science and thus science fiction, AND having poorly developed social skills makes for some really bizzare debates about wether Wookies braid armpit hair or if Shanter and Stewart actually enjoyed wearing pantyhose while on horses in Startrek: Generations.

Others realize thier fellow bretherin are willing to pay cash through the nose to know how many toilets there are on a D7 Klingon battelcruiser or if the Tardis can actually make a long distance phone call.

it's basicaly what you get when to get a bunch of people together who share the same interests and want to socialize.

I don't buy the idea that the socially inept will naturally read SF. Why not detective fiction or police procedurals? Or, indeed, techno-adventure thrillers of the Crichton kind? All of these, at their low end, provide the lack of troubling emotional complexity coupled with obsessive attention to detail that these people seem to crave?

And on the flipside, how is it that nerdosity exists at all outside sci-fi. Are the buffoons who file around Dublin every Bloomsday in search of a cheese sandwich, or the Jane Austen wonks (truliy the Trekkies of 19th century litterature), going through the same psychological process? How can people with poor social skills even read Ulysses - it would surely require an understanding of the human condition that is beyond them?

However, I suspect your penultimate paragraph is, depressingly, the key. Can it be just that there's money to be made from these people? A bit of laser-drenched hackwork, an afternoon signing autographs, cash in hand, ta? How awful...

dudalb · 29th October 2007, 01:18 PM

The Sci Fi /Fantasy fans are bad enough,heaven knows, but their brothers the Comic Books fans (and yes,there is a HUGE Crossover ) are even worse. We have had a few examples here.
The real problems is that only a minority of Sci fi fans actually read Science Fiction. The media obssesed fanboys are now in the heavy majority.
Fnord, a major problem is a lot of Sci Fi "Fans" have never heard of Asimov,let along the Laws of Robotics.

dudalb · 29th October 2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

I don't think the problem lies with SF as much as it lies with the person using SF as a drug.

Bingo.
I read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction,but avoid organized fandom because of the stupidity factor.
In fact a real problem is that a majority of the fans nowdays don't actually read Sci Fi,but just watch the movies and tv Shows.

Piscivore · 29th October 2007, 01:23 PM

http://www.theofficeconvention.com/

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

The Sci Fi /Fantasy fans are bad enough,heaven knows, but their brothers the Comic Books fans (and yes,there is a HUGE Crossover ) are even worse. We have had a few examples here.
The real problems is that only a minority of Sci fi fans actually read Science Fiction. The media obssesed fanboys are now in the heavy majority.
Fnord, a major problem is a lot of Sci Fi "Fans" have never heard of Asimov,let along the Laws of Robotics.

My problem that a lot of "fans" seem to believe that the Laws of Robotics are actual, real Laws that Robots will obey if you build them

(I don't like Asimov much, to be honest, being more of a New Wave man. Frankly, any worthwhile AI with that built into its system would go mental considering the ramifications the second you booted it up...).

Magic 9-Ball · 29th October 2007, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention.

What is my penance?

You are sentenced to:
- grandchildren who love the genre, want Yoda and Darth Vader beanie babies, and want you to sit and watch Episiode I over and over.
- a new phone number with the last 4 numbers 9368 (XENU).
- a personalized license plate: IMSPOCK

Live Long, and Prosper!

Timble · 29th October 2007, 01:33 PM

Some Sherlock Holmes fans can be pretty obsessive. There's quite a lot of analyses of the books, their continuity, their supposed locations etc...and they do dress up in Victorian gear and reenact the stories.

Definitely could give Trekkers/Trekkies, Whovians, etc a run for their money.

Dunstan · 29th October 2007, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

See,this is my underlying worry with all this. Tom Disch, I think, called SF a 'fundamentally puerile medium', and it worries me that he might be globally correct. Do I just have to resign myself to being surrounded by literary tropes that are catnip to the helpless and immature (evasion of mortality, simplifed (perhaps even no) sexuality, limitless power...)?

Why do you care so much? Repeat after me:

"I will not attempt to prove my worth through my entertainment choices."

You'll feel much better.

Quote:

Am I even still attracted to these tropes - can a love of SF ever be truly psychologically healthy?

I hope so, otherwise all of the many seemingly normal, non-geeky folks who have enjoyed science fiction on television (Heroes, Lost, the Doctor Who, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Battlestar Galactica in recent years) and film (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, umpteen others) are psychologically unhealthy. Sci-fi is so mainstream these days that most people like at least some sci-fi, whether they realize it's what they're seeing or not.

It's ok to be a little annoyed by, and occasionally mock, the loony fans. But don't let them detract from your enjoyment, and don't let them push you into becoming one of those insufferable jerks who claims (to quote a T-shirt I saw advertised on The Onion): "I enjoy The Simpsons on a much deeper level than you."

Pretty much every hobby or pasttime has its weirdos. Go read a discussion board for a non-science fiction television show, and you'll find plenty of crazies there, too.

Read and watch what you like. If you despise the lunatic fringe of fandom, then just don't act like them, and don't interact with them.

Piscivore · 29th October 2007, 01:40 PM

Listen to what Dunstan says. And if you think you have a problem, try being a fan of Anime.

Morwen · 29th October 2007, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

*sigh*

I have to explain this again?!?

Millions of years ago, the evil galactic emperor Xenu gathered up aliens from numerous worlds who sought to oppose him, dropped them into volcanoes on earth, then dropped hydrogen bombs on them...

You almost got it right. The whole story is here, but don't tell anybody!

Fnord · 29th October 2007, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Magic 9-Ball

You are sentenced to:
- grandchildren who love the genre, want Yoda and Darth Vader beanie babies, and want you to sit and watch Episiode I over and over.
- a new phone number with the last 4 numbers 9368 (XENU).
- a personalized license plate: IMSPOCK

Live Long, and Prosper!

Thank you ... I think ...

(At least he didn't say I had to wear a red shirt at the next Star Trek convention ... or work the sound board at a William Shatner karaoke night ...)

Lonewulf · 29th October 2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by rcronk

Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them.

Or, the Hubbard thing.

Speaking as someone who frequents the Steve Jackson forums, out of my love for the GURPS role playing system, I'm pretty sure I take offense at this.

In my personal experience, the stereotype of the average gamer is pretty much fiction. Not to say that there aren't "socially inept, unwashed nerds" that definitely play role playing games (and I won't even go into conventions, as I have no personal experience there), just as I cannot say that there aren't "brain-dead horny jocks" that play sports. Doesn't make anyone that plays football or any other sport the latter, though.

Then there's the "evil mad scientist" stereotype, which I'm pretty sure that Nicholai Tesla is the front runner of. Damn, those were the cool days for science.

What other stereotypes are there out there? Outside of racial and religious stereotypes, of course.

ETA: Of course, if you want to talk *just* about "socially inept" people, just remember that you're seeing socially inept people from all walks of life on this forum. There are some religious zealots that don't seem that they're leading a totally "socially ept" life that have probably never played a game of D&D in their life.

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dunstan

It's ok to be a little annoyed by, and occasionally mock, the loony fans. But don't let them detract from your enjoyment

Sensible advice in terms of my own stability and sanity, Dunstan. It's how I'd answer me...

Except that I reckon they already do detract from my enjoyment, and yours. They are the reason that lazy. hacky directors and scriptwriters know that they don't need to worry about characterisation and plot as long as they get enough whizz-bang and technobabble in. As a consequence it appears likely that nothing like, say, 2001 or Bladerunner will ever be made again.

Their tastes are the reason that I have to walk past miles of rubbish in the bookstores to pick out the handful of decent writers that are managing to get published at any given time.

Battlestar Galactica is a case in point. I love that show - it's possibly the first pure SF series that appears to have been actually made for grown-ups. However, becasue of the nerd association, non-SF fans don't watch it, and because it looks insufficiently like Star Trek, nerds won't watch it. It serves only its niche - hence falling ratings, cancellation and, I should imagine, a hastier and less satisfying conclusion than we might otherwise have had.

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 03:06 PM

double post sorry pardon

Dunstan · 29th October 2007, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

Sensible advice in terms of my own stability and sanity, Dunstan. It's how I'd answer me...

Except that I reckon they already do detract from my enjoyment, and yours. They are the reason that lazy. hacky directors and scriptwriters know that they don't need to worry about characterisation and plot as long as they get enough whizz-bang and technobabble in. As a consequence it appears likely that nothing like, say, 2001 or Bladerunner will ever be made again.

I really don't think that's true. There just aren't enough hard-core geeks to bother marketing a movie to. I called them the lunatic fringe because they're the fringe. Movie studios want to bring in the casual viewer who doesn't necessarily like sci-fi, and the studio execs think (probably rightly) that big special effects budgets will bring in those people. They don't care if the hard-core Tolkein fans are ticked off that Peter Jackson didn't put Tom Bombadil in the movies, because there aren't enough of them to matter, and even most of them will probably see the movie two or three times if only to further nitpick it.

Matt the Poet · 29th October 2007, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dunstan

I really don't think that's true. There just aren't enough hard-core geeks to bother marketing a movie to. I called them the lunatic fringe because they're the fringe. Movie studios want to bring in the casual viewer who doesn't necessarily like sci-fi, and the studio execs think (probably rightly) that big special effects budgets will bring in those people. They don't care if the hard-core Tolkein fans are ticked off that Peter Jackson didn't put Tom Bombadil in the movies, because there aren't enough of them to matter, and even most of them will probably see the movie two or three times if only to further nitpick it.

Hmmph. That does make a certain amount of sense. I still maintain, however, that your casual viewer's wariness (and therefore the creative cowardice of those who pander to it) is magnified by their perceptions of the fringe - who may be quite small, but are highly visible.

That said, I suppose you're right. Until they actually stop publishing people like Adam Roberts and Ian McDonald it's not my problem...

rcronk · 29th October 2007, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lonewulf

Speaking as someone who frequents the Steve Jackson forums, out of my love for the GURPS role playing system, I'm pretty sure I take offense at this.

In my personal experience, the stereotype of the average gamer is pretty much fiction. Not to say that there aren't "socially inept, unwashed nerds" that definitely play role playing games (and I won't even go into conventions, as I have no personal experience there), just as I cannot say that there aren't "brain-dead horny jocks" that play sports. Doesn't make anyone that plays football or any other sport the latter, though.

Then there's the "evil mad scientist" stereotype, which I'm pretty sure that Nicholai Tesla is the front runner of. Damn, those were the cool days for science.

What other stereotypes are there out there? Outside of racial and religious stereotypes, of course.

ETA: Of course, if you want to talk *just* about "socially inept" people, just remember that you're seeing socially inept people from all walks of life on this forum. There are some religious zealots that don't seem that they're leading a totally "socially ept" life that have probably never played a game of D&D in their life.

Good point - I was wrong to paint with such a wide brush - it wasn't my intent.

My comments are based on those who I personally know and is therefore only anecdotal and only applies to them. Again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any of this stuff (I enjoy a good SF book or movie too). Some people I've seen can use it to escape reality in such a way that stunts their emotional and social growth. And if someone's ok with self-stunting, that's fine too. I was really just trying to give Matt the Poet some ideas for self-inspection. Again, no offense intended.

fuelair · 29th October 2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Bingo.
I read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction,but avoid organized fandom because of the stupidity factor.
In fact a real problem is that a majority of the fans nowdays don't actually read Sci Fi,but just watch the movies and tv Shows.

There are SF cons for actual SF readers - and reading groups that read and discuss it. Media cons and the kind of people (money grubbers) that put them on got in the way.

dudalb · 29th October 2007, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

There are SF cons for actual SF readers - and reading groups that read and discuss it. Media cons and the kind of people (money grubbers) that put them on got in the way.

The problem is a lot of the mainstream Sci Fi Cons, (Westercon,etc) have pretty much been taken over by the media freaks.

Bikewer · 29th October 2007, 05:12 PM

I post on one sci-fi and fantasy bulletin board, and they have a "gaming" section. All the posts are in regards to RPGs.....

uruk · 29th October 2007, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

I don't buy the idea that the socially inept will naturally read SF. Why not detective fiction or police procedurals? Or, indeed, techno-adventure thrillers of the Crichton kind? All of these, at their low end, provide the lack of troubling emotional complexity coupled with obsessive attention to detail that these people seem to crave?

I don't think it is exclusive to Sci-fi. I was just using sci-fi as an example. It is that a particular type of the socialy inept gravitate towards sci-fi.
And they happen to be the most visible for some reason.

It could be that other onsessive fan who go gaga over detective and police programs are less ostracized because the shows or genera is more mainstream or they are less organized.
You see some of the fans that go nuts over CSI.

Quote:

And on the flipside, how is it that nerdosity exists at all outside sci-fi. Are the buffoons who file around Dublin every Bloomsday in search of a cheese sandwich, or the Jane Austen wonks (truliy the Trekkies of 19th century litterature), going through the same psychological process? How can people with poor social skills even read Ulysses - it would surely require an understanding of the human condition that is beyond them?

I don't think it is so much an issue of not understanding the human condition but rather an issue of execution of social skills in thier life.
I understand singing, I just can't sing worth a darn.

Quote:

However, I suspect your penultimate paragraph is, depressingly, the key. Can it be just that there's money to be made from these people? A bit of laser-drenched hackwork, an afternoon signing autographs, cash in hand, ta? How awful...

Well sci-fi conventions are primarily organized by the vendors. The rabble use it to network socially.

For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby.

It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time.

Fnord · 29th October 2007, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by uruk

For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby. It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time.

Does anyone have a link to William Shatner's Star Trek Convention skit from Saturday Night Live?

I laughed. I wept. I loaned my only copy and never got it back.

fuelair · 30th October 2007, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by uruk

I don't think it is exclusive to Sci-fi. I was just using sci-fi as an example. It is that a particular type of the socialy inept gravitate towards sci-fi.
And they happen to be the most visible for some reason.

It could be that other onsessive fan who go gaga over detective and police programs are less ostracized because the shows or genera is more mainstream or they are less organized.
You see some of the fans that go nuts over CSI.

I don't think it is so much an issue of not understanding the human condition but rather an issue of execution of social skills in thier life.
I understand singing, I just can't sing worth a darn.

Well sci-fi conventions are primarily organized by the vendors. The rabble use it to network socially.

For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby.

It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time.

Actually, the real SF conventions are organized by the fans (to use examples from when I did more of this: Kubla Khan, Necronomicon, Oasis, Rivercon, Marcon, Rovacon, Deep South Con etc.). The large Media conventions (Star Trek Cons, Mega-Con, Creation etc.) are organized essentially for vendors, sometimes by promoters - who must balance vendor needs and what will draw crowds and sometimes by persons who are also vendors.

Mobyseven · 30th October 2007, 06:37 AM

Hmmm...I can't speak for America, but I can say that in Australia the face of sci-fi is changing. This is primarily because the face of geek/nerd-dom has also changed, most importantly through the discovery of exercise and deodorant.

I just watched an episode of Farscape. With two members of the opposite sex! See how things can change?

Jimbo07 · 30th October 2007, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Does anyone have a link to William Shatner's Star Trek Convention skit from Saturday Night Live?

I laughed. I wept. I loaned my only copy and never got it back.

Ironically, even at his advanced age, Shatner seems to need Star Trek more than ever. He publishes books and wants to be involved in all the projects. Poor guy...

Magic 9-Ball · 30th October 2007, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Does anyone have a link to William Shatner's Star Trek Convention skit from Saturday Night Live?

I laughed. I wept. I loaned my only copy and never got it back.

Couldn't get the whole thing, but here's where Shatner goes ballistic. There was a part before the clip starts about one of the Trekkies asking about minute specifics of one obscure episode and Shatner of course couldn't
remember anything like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wed_b6yShc

uruk · 30th October 2007, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Actually, the real SF conventions are organized by the fans (to use examples from when I did more of this: Kubla Khan, Necronomicon, Oasis, Rivercon, Marcon, Rovacon, Deep South Con etc.). The large Media conventions (Star Trek Cons, Mega-Con, Creation etc.) are organized essentially for vendors, sometimes by promoters - who must balance vendor needs and what will draw crowds and sometimes by persons who are also vendors.

I stand corrected.
The few conventions I have attended were of the second type you mentioned.

uruk · 30th October 2007, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Ironically, even at his advanced age, Shatner seems to need Star Trek more than ever. He publishes books and wants to be involved in all the projects. Poor guy...

I think Shatner realized at one point in his life that if he was forever going to be known as Captain Kirk, he might as well make it pay his bills.
Now he owns half a mountain and a bunch of horses in California.

More power to him I say. He's had a fairly good career. T.J. Hooker, Rescue 911, Tek Wars Priceline.com, Boston Legal, all those books. He's actually doing better now than he was back then.
I think he even got nominated or won an Emmy for Boston Legal. He also has his star on the walk of fame.

Even the rest of the actors are finding oppurtunities of thier own. Koening had BabylonV, Takei and Nichols are doing Heros.

I also read that the new Star Trek movie is supposed to be about Kirk and Spock's time back in the academy.
Nimoy has signed up to play Spock's older self. They have been hammering at Shatner to reprise the older Kirk, but so far he hasn't been interested.

Unless they plan to make it a surprise.

technoextreme · 30th October 2007, 08:11 AM

Whoops.

29th October 2007, 10:35 AM	#1
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	SF, defended from its fans... Bit of a rant this, but hopefully it will start an interesting ding-dong. Speaking as a great and long-time fan of the genre, I’ve just got to know – why are so many of us such incredible dorks? How did such an enormous flock of socially underdeveloped, borderline autists come to congregate around the books, films and TV that I love? And more importantly, how the hell do we stop it? It doesn’t seem to happen anywhere else. Nobody feels the need to publish, or even discuss, the engineering schematics of Manderlay. There appears to be remarkably little Bleak House fan fiction. There is no collectible range of Harry Angstrom action figures (Rabbit is posable!), and if there were I suspect that even the most rabid Updike fan would have little interest in them. It irritates me, partially because the general contempt for SF comes from this – it’s no good blaming 'closed mindedness' when the public face of Science Fiction is so deeply embarrassing. Mainly, however, it’s because I believe it to be the cause of the horrifying poverty of imagination from which the film and TV arm of the genre in particular suffer, On the one hand, the whole ‘nerd movement’ seems to be rather narrow minded, offering vocal and often distressingly angry opposition to things they percieve as ‘off-canon’. On the other they appear to have almost no critical faculties, being perfectly happy to consume endless shonkily-written ‘novelisations’ and obsessive episode-by-episode breakdowns of their favourite TV series. Is that fair? Or not? If not, why not? If so, what’s going on?

29th October 2007, 11:04 AM	#2
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,811	Originally Posted by Matt the Poet Bit of a rant this, but hopefully it will start an interesting ding-dong. Speaking as a great and long-time fan of the genre, I’ve just got to know – why are so many of us such incredible dorks? How did such an enormous flock of socially underdeveloped, borderline autists come to congregate around the books, films and TV that I love? And more importantly, how the hell do we stop it? It doesn’t seem to happen anywhere else. Nobody feels the need to publish, or even discuss, the engineering schematics of Manderlay. There appears to be remarkably little Bleak House fan fiction. There is no collectible range of Harry Angstrom action figures (Rabbit is posable!), and if there were I suspect that even the most rabid Updike fan would have little interest in them. It irritates me, partially because the general contempt for SF comes from this – it’s no good blaming 'closed mindedness' when the public face of Science Fiction is so deeply embarrassing. Mainly, however, it’s because I believe it to be the cause of the horrifying poverty of imagination from which the film and TV arm of the genre in particular suffer, On the one hand, the whole ‘nerd movement’ seems to be rather narrow minded, offering vocal and often distressingly angry opposition to things they percieve as ‘off-canon’. On the other they appear to have almost no critical faculties, being perfectly happy to consume endless shonkily-written ‘novelisations’ and obsessive episode-by-episode breakdowns of their favourite TV series. Is that fair? Or not? If not, why not? If so, what’s going on? sigh I have to explain this again?!? Millions of years ago, the evil galactic emperor Xenu gathered up aliens from numerous worlds who sought to oppose him, dropped them into volcanoes on earth, then dropped hydrogen bombs on them. Their spirits have roamed our planet ever since, and are the cause of all pain, suffering, confusion, mental illness, etc. Science fiction is a subconscious reflection of the memories of these alien creatures; and sci-fi conventions, when people dress up, are actually one of the most obvious demonstrable truths of what the Honorable L. Ron Hubbard revealed all those many years ago -- it is a re-enactment of the lives and dreams of countless different alien species who now populate our minds.
	__________________ The Meta-Solipsistic Autosycophant mantra: "I post, therefore I am nominated"

29th October 2007, 11:54 AM	#4
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728	Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them. Or, the Hubbard thing.
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728

29th October 2007, 12:01 PM	#5
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Matt the Poet Why doesn't anybody tell me these things? If only this obvious, plausible theory had the publicity it deserves! Perhaps we could persuade some prominent celebrity to endorse it... Yeah, we could call the hypothesis "Sciencefictiontheology" or maybe some shortened form thereof! Never mind ... I made my saving throw, and my character sees through the illusion.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.** Last edited by Fnord; 29th October 2007 at 12:33 PM.

29th October 2007, 12:09 PM	#6
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	If you have ever been to a recent (last 10 years or so) SF con and hit the gaming room(s), you would reconsider immediately your opinion of SF fans overall - the gamers make the dorkiest of the fans look like true social adepts!! Just in the matter of hygiene there is a hardcore difference. Trekkies and Warties are pretty bad too just in a mildly different way. But, as a dealer (huckster) I sell freely and of my own will to all!!! (Well, except to the gamers who do not come to deal/watch/read or buy, but only to game as long as they can/wherever they can - and wash not or rarely).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

29th October 2007, 11:52 AM	#3
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Why doesn't anybody tell me these things? If only this obvious, plausible theory had the publicity it deserves! Perhaps we could persuade some prominent celebrity to endorse it...

29th October 2007, 12:27 PM	#7
uruk Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 5,313	There are a certain breed of people who are born socialy inept. Social ineptitute leads to having extra alone time. This time is usualy spent on reading. The extra brain exercise leads to some deeper thinking about the world around you. This leads some to develope an interest in science. The interest in science naturaly leads the person to the science fiction genra, since it is for the most part a literary genera and it combines the two things most people, who like science fiction, are interested . Gadgets and women with big metal boob protectors. No since being socialy inept does not exclude you from the desire to socialize people who share the same interest tend to flock together because they have something incommon to talk about and break the ice. Now having a little extra brain power and being interested in science and thus science fiction, AND having poorly developed social skills makes for some really bizzare debates about wether Wookies braid armpit hair or if Shanter and Stewart actually enjoyed wearing pantyhose while on horses in Startrek: Generations. Others realize thier fellow bretherin are willing to pay cash through the nose to know how many toilets there are on a D7 Klingon battelcruiser or if the Tardis can actually make a long distance phone call. it's basicaly what you get when to get a bunch of people together who share the same interests and want to socialize.
	__________________ Fourscore and seven years ago I tapped yo mama in a log cabin! Abe Lincoln Last edited by uruk; 29th October 2007 at 12:30 PM.

29th October 2007, 12:31 PM	#8
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention. I have taken Gene Roddenberry's name in vain. I have committed the apostasy of promoting the Fourth Law of Robotics, and in the name of Asimov. I have adulterated a "Babylon V" roleplaying game with "AD&D" creatures from the lower planes. I have canceled my subscriptions to "Analog" and "Astounding" magazines. There are no books of "Dune" in my home. I have taught my children to play "Everquest." I have friends ... yes, father; friends! Real, honest, flesh-and-blood friends! And they like me! ... who publically deny and disavow any interest in the Science Fiction Channel and any movie with the word "Star" in its title. Finally, father, I have traded my first-issue copy of "THX-1138" for a pirated copy of "Wizards." What is my penance?
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

29th October 2007, 12:57 PM	#9
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by rcronk Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them. Or, the Hubbard thing. See,this is my underlying worry with all this. Tom Disch, I think, called SF a 'fundamentally puerile medium', and it worries me that he might be globally correct. Do I just have to resign myself to being surrounded by literary tropes that are catnip to the helpless and immature (evasion of mortality, simplifed (perhaps even no) sexuality, limitless power...)? Am I even still attracted to these tropes - can a love of SF ever be truly psychologically healthy?

29th October 2007, 01:13 PM	#10
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Fnord Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention. I have taken Gene Roddenberry's name in vain. I have committed the apostasy of promoting the Fourth Law of Robotics, and in the name of Asimov. I have adulterated a "Babylon V" roleplaying game with "AD&D" creatures from the lower planes. I have canceled my subscriptions to "Analog" and "Astounding" magazines. There are no books of "Dune" in my home. I have taught my children to play "Everquest." I have friends ... yes, father; friends! Real, honest, flesh-and-blood friends! And they like me! ... who publically deny and disavow any interest in the Science Fiction Channel and any movie with the word "Star" in its title. Finally, father, I have traded my first-issue copy of "THX-1138" for a pirated copy of "Wizards." What is my penance? Analog and Astounding are the same magazine, the name Astounding was last used in the issue dated September 1960, in which it appeared faintly behind the new name of Analog... (I am not a dork!)
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

29th October 2007, 01:14 PM	#11
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728	If it is an addiction, it could keep a person from maturing emotionally. Some of the effects SF addiction has on its users seem to be very similar to other addictions. These things all seem to provide an escape from reality to the point that the person rarely has to work through or deal with reality, keeping them stunted in their emotional growth. I don't think the problem lies with SF as much as it lies with the person using SF as a drug. This conversation sounds a bit silly, but now that I'm looking at this, it really starts looking like an addiction for some people. I've worked with hundreds of addicts and many of them switch addictions (drugs, alcohol, pornography, etc.) and gaming and SF can provide an alternative addiction that is less guilt ridden, less expensive, slightly more socially acceptable, or (on the surface) less destructive. Even escaping into books can provide a similar detachment from reality for some of the addicts I've worked with. And it's usually never about the item being used as much as it is about the user of these items and the purpose for which they are using them. Even conspiracy theories can act as an escape or detachment from reality or even be a method of deriving false self worth through intellectual elitism, etc. Or, the Hubbard thing.
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728

29th October 2007, 01:16 PM	#12
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by uruk There are a certain breed of people who are born socialy inept. Social ineptitute leads to having extra alone time. This time is usualy spent on reading. The extra brain exercise leads to some deeper thinking about the world around you. This leads some to develope an interest in science. The interest in science naturaly leads the person to the science fiction genra, since it is for the most part a literary genera and it combines the two things most people, who like science fiction, are interested . Gadgets and women with big metal boob protectors. No since being socialy inept does not exclude you from the desire to socialize people who share the same interest tend to flock together because they have something incommon to talk about and break the ice. Now having a little extra brain power and being interested in science and thus science fiction, AND having poorly developed social skills makes for some really bizzare debates about wether Wookies braid armpit hair or if Shanter and Stewart actually enjoyed wearing pantyhose while on horses in Startrek: Generations. Others realize thier fellow bretherin are willing to pay cash through the nose to know how many toilets there are on a D7 Klingon battelcruiser or if the Tardis can actually make a long distance phone call. it's basicaly what you get when to get a bunch of people together who share the same interests and want to socialize. I don't buy the idea that the socially inept will naturally read SF. Why not detective fiction or police procedurals? Or, indeed, techno-adventure thrillers of the Crichton kind? All of these, at their low end, provide the lack of troubling emotional complexity coupled with obsessive attention to detail that these people seem to crave? And on the flipside, how is it that nerdosity exists at all outside sci-fi. Are the buffoons who file around Dublin every Bloomsday in search of a cheese sandwich, or the Jane Austen wonks (truliy the Trekkies of 19th century litterature), going through the same psychological process? How can people with poor social skills even read Ulysses - it would surely require an understanding of the human condition that is beyond them? However, I suspect your penultimate paragraph is, depressingly, the key. Can it be just that there's money to be made from these people? A bit of laser-drenched hackwork, an afternoon signing autographs, cash in hand, ta? How awful...

29th October 2007, 01:18 PM	#13
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	The Sci Fi /Fantasy fans are bad enough,heaven knows, but their brothers the Comic Books fans (and yes,there is a HUGE Crossover ) are even worse. We have had a few examples here. The real problems is that only a minority of Sci fi fans actually read Science Fiction. The media obssesed fanboys are now in the heavy majority. Fnord, a major problem is a lot of Sci Fi "Fans" have never heard of Asimov,let along the Laws of Robotics.

29th October 2007, 01:20 PM	#14
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	Quote: I don't think the problem lies with SF as much as it lies with the person using SF as a drug. Bingo. I read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction,but avoid organized fandom because of the stupidity factor. In fact a real problem is that a majority of the fans nowdays don't actually read Sci Fi,but just watch the movies and tv Shows.

29th October 2007, 01:23 PM	#15
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,484	http://www.theofficeconvention.com/
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

29th October 2007, 01:26 PM	#16
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by dudalb The Sci Fi /Fantasy fans are bad enough,heaven knows, but their brothers the Comic Books fans (and yes,there is a HUGE Crossover ) are even worse. We have had a few examples here. The real problems is that only a minority of Sci fi fans actually read Science Fiction. The media obssesed fanboys are now in the heavy majority. Fnord, a major problem is a lot of Sci Fi "Fans" have never heard of Asimov,let along the Laws of Robotics. My problem that a lot of "fans" seem to believe that the Laws of Robotics are actual, real Laws that Robots will obey if you build them (I don't like Asimov much, to be honest, being more of a New Wave man. Frankly, any worthwhile AI with that built into its system would go mental considering the ramifications the second you booted it up...).

29th October 2007, 01:26 PM	#17
Magic 9-Ball Hey, that's a good name for a band! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Here, on my way to there. Posts: 1,512	Originally Posted by Fnord Forgive me, father; it has been 13 years since my last convention. What is my penance? You are sentenced to: - grandchildren who love the genre, want Yoda and Darth Vader beanie babies, and want you to sit and watch Episiode I over and over. - a new phone number with the last 4 numbers 9368 (XENU). - a personalized license plate: IMSPOCK Live Long, and Prosper!
	__________________ All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

29th October 2007, 01:33 PM	#18
Timble Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Wisteria Avenue, Huntingdon Posts: 934	Some Sherlock Holmes fans can be pretty obsessive. There's quite a lot of analyses of the books, their continuity, their supposed locations etc...and they do dress up in Victorian gear and reenact the stories. Definitely could give Trekkers/Trekkies, Whovians, etc a run for their money.
	__________________ We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.

29th October 2007, 01:35 PM	#19
Dunstan Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnyvale Trailer Park Posts: 4,292	Originally Posted by Matt the Poet See,this is my underlying worry with all this. Tom Disch, I think, called SF a 'fundamentally puerile medium', and it worries me that he might be globally correct. Do I just have to resign myself to being surrounded by literary tropes that are catnip to the helpless and immature (evasion of mortality, simplifed (perhaps even no) sexuality, limitless power...)? Why do you care so much? Repeat after me: "I will not attempt to prove my worth through my entertainment choices." You'll feel much better. Quote: Am I even still attracted to these tropes - can a love of SF ever be truly psychologically healthy? I hope so, otherwise all of the many seemingly normal, non-geeky folks who have enjoyed science fiction on television (Heroes, Lost, the Doctor Who, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Battlestar Galactica in recent years) and film (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, umpteen others) are psychologically unhealthy. Sci-fi is so mainstream these days that most people like at least some sci-fi, whether they realize it's what they're seeing or not. It's ok to be a little annoyed by, and occasionally mock, the loony fans. But don't let them detract from your enjoyment, and don't let them push you into becoming one of those insufferable jerks who claims (to quote a T-shirt I saw advertised on The Onion): "I enjoy The Simpsons on a much deeper level than you." Pretty much every hobby or pasttime has its weirdos. Go read a discussion board for a non-science fiction television show, and you'll find plenty of crazies there, too. Read and watch what you like. If you despise the lunatic fringe of fandom, then just don't act like them, and don't interact with them.

29th October 2007, 01:40 PM	#20
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,484	Listen to what Dunstan says. And if you think you have a problem, try being a fan of Anime.
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

29th October 2007, 01:44 PM	#21
Morwen Reality junkie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 780	Originally Posted by Wolfman sigh I have to explain this again?!? Millions of years ago, the evil galactic emperor Xenu gathered up aliens from numerous worlds who sought to oppose him, dropped them into volcanoes on earth, then dropped hydrogen bombs on them... You almost got it right. The whole story is here, but don't tell anybody!
	__________________ "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move." -- Douglas Adams "La vida, esa chulería de la materia" -- Emile Ciorán

29th October 2007, 01:49 PM	#22
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Magic 9-Ball You are sentenced to: - grandchildren who love the genre, want Yoda and Darth Vader beanie babies, and want you to sit and watch Episiode I over and over. - a new phone number with the last 4 numbers 9368 (XENU). - a personalized license plate: IMSPOCK Live Long, and Prosper! Thank you ... I think ... (At least he didn't say I had to wear a red shirt at the next Star Trek convention ... or work the sound board at a William Shatner karaoke night ...)
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.** Last edited by Fnord; 29th October 2007 at 02:04 PM.

29th October 2007, 01:51 PM	#23
Lonewulf Humanistic Cyborg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 10,380	Originally Posted by rcronk Perhaps the socially retarded (I mean challenged) are compensating for their feelings of inadequacy through fantasy/SF roles - even dressing up as the characters through which they vicariously satisfy their need to feel not only adequate but powerful? The same ilk seems to bury themselves deep in role playing games, perhaps for the same reason. It almost seems like it's a drug to them. Or, the Hubbard thing. Speaking as someone who frequents the Steve Jackson forums, out of my love for the GURPS role playing system, I'm pretty sure I take offense at this. In my personal experience, the stereotype of the average gamer is pretty much fiction. Not to say that there aren't "socially inept, unwashed nerds" that definitely play role playing games (and I won't even go into conventions, as I have no personal experience there), just as I cannot say that there aren't "brain-dead horny jocks" that play sports. Doesn't make anyone that plays football or any other sport the latter, though. Then there's the "evil mad scientist" stereotype, which I'm pretty sure that Nicholai Tesla is the front runner of. Damn, those were the cool days for science. What other stereotypes are there out there? Outside of racial and religious stereotypes, of course. ETA: Of course, if you want to talk just about "socially inept" people, just remember that you're seeing socially inept people from all walks of life on this forum. There are some religious zealots that don't seem that they're leading a totally "socially ept" life that have probably never played a game of D&D in their life.
	__________________ Writing.com Account Last edited by Lonewulf; 29th October 2007 at 01:57 PM.

29th October 2007, 02:59 PM	#24
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by Dunstan It's ok to be a little annoyed by, and occasionally mock, the loony fans. But don't let them detract from your enjoyment Sensible advice in terms of my own stability and sanity, Dunstan. It's how I'd answer me... Except that I reckon they already do detract from my enjoyment, and yours. They are the reason that lazy. hacky directors and scriptwriters know that they don't need to worry about characterisation and plot as long as they get enough whizz-bang and technobabble in. As a consequence it appears likely that nothing like, say, 2001 or Bladerunner will ever be made again. Their tastes are the reason that I have to walk past miles of rubbish in the bookstores to pick out the handful of decent writers that are managing to get published at any given time. Battlestar Galactica is a case in point. I love that show - it's possibly the first pure SF series that appears to have been actually made for grown-ups. However, becasue of the nerd association, non-SF fans don't watch it, and because it looks insufficiently like Star Trek, nerds won't watch it. It serves only its niche - hence falling ratings, cancellation and, I should imagine, a hastier and less satisfying conclusion than we might otherwise have had.

29th October 2007, 03:06 PM	#25
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	double post sorry pardon

29th October 2007, 03:14 PM	#26
Dunstan Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnyvale Trailer Park Posts: 4,292	Originally Posted by Matt the Poet Sensible advice in terms of my own stability and sanity, Dunstan. It's how I'd answer me... Except that I reckon they already do detract from my enjoyment, and yours. They are the reason that lazy. hacky directors and scriptwriters know that they don't need to worry about characterisation and plot as long as they get enough whizz-bang and technobabble in. As a consequence it appears likely that nothing like, say, 2001 or Bladerunner will ever be made again. I really don't think that's true. There just aren't enough hard-core geeks to bother marketing a movie to. I called them the lunatic fringe because they're the fringe. Movie studios want to bring in the casual viewer who doesn't necessarily like sci-fi, and the studio execs think (probably rightly) that big special effects budgets will bring in those people. They don't care if the hard-core Tolkein fans are ticked off that Peter Jackson didn't put Tom Bombadil in the movies, because there aren't enough of them to matter, and even most of them will probably see the movie two or three times if only to further nitpick it.

29th October 2007, 03:24 PM	#27
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by Dunstan I really don't think that's true. There just aren't enough hard-core geeks to bother marketing a movie to. I called them the lunatic fringe because they're the fringe. Movie studios want to bring in the casual viewer who doesn't necessarily like sci-fi, and the studio execs think (probably rightly) that big special effects budgets will bring in those people. They don't care if the hard-core Tolkein fans are ticked off that Peter Jackson didn't put Tom Bombadil in the movies, because there aren't enough of them to matter, and even most of them will probably see the movie two or three times if only to further nitpick it. Hmmph. That does make a certain amount of sense. I still maintain, however, that your casual viewer's wariness (and therefore the creative cowardice of those who pander to it) is magnified by their perceptions of the fringe - who may be quite small, but are highly visible. That said, I suppose you're right. Until they actually stop publishing people like Adam Roberts and Ian McDonald it's not my problem...

29th October 2007, 03:34 PM	#28
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728	Originally Posted by Lonewulf Speaking as someone who frequents the Steve Jackson forums, out of my love for the GURPS role playing system, I'm pretty sure I take offense at this. In my personal experience, the stereotype of the average gamer is pretty much fiction. Not to say that there aren't "socially inept, unwashed nerds" that definitely play role playing games (and I won't even go into conventions, as I have no personal experience there), just as I cannot say that there aren't "brain-dead horny jocks" that play sports. Doesn't make anyone that plays football or any other sport the latter, though. Then there's the "evil mad scientist" stereotype, which I'm pretty sure that Nicholai Tesla is the front runner of. Damn, those were the cool days for science. What other stereotypes are there out there? Outside of racial and religious stereotypes, of course. ETA: Of course, if you want to talk just about "socially inept" people, just remember that you're seeing socially inept people from all walks of life on this forum. There are some religious zealots that don't seem that they're leading a totally "socially ept" life that have probably never played a game of D&D in their life. Good point - I was wrong to paint with such a wide brush - it wasn't my intent. My comments are based on those who I personally know and is therefore only anecdotal and only applies to them. Again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any of this stuff (I enjoy a good SF book or movie too). Some people I've seen can use it to escape reality in such a way that stunts their emotional and social growth. And if someone's ok with self-stunting, that's fine too. I was really just trying to give Matt the Poet some ideas for self-inspection. Again, no offense intended.
rcronk Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 728	Last edited by rcronk; 29th October 2007 at 03:41 PM.

29th October 2007, 03:43 PM	#29
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by dudalb Bingo. I read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction,but avoid organized fandom because of the stupidity factor. In fact a real problem is that a majority of the fans nowdays don't actually read Sci Fi,but just watch the movies and tv Shows. There are SF cons for actual SF readers - and reading groups that read and discuss it. Media cons and the kind of people (money grubbers) that put them on got in the way.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

29th October 2007, 04:41 PM	#30
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	Originally Posted by fuelair There are SF cons for actual SF readers - and reading groups that read and discuss it. Media cons and the kind of people (money grubbers) that put them on got in the way. The problem is a lot of the mainstream Sci Fi Cons, (Westercon,etc) have pretty much been taken over by the media freaks.

29th October 2007, 05:12 PM	#31
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,538	I post on one sci-fi and fantasy bulletin board, and they have a "gaming" section. All the posts are in regards to RPGs.....

29th October 2007, 08:29 PM	#32
uruk Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: In the land of the Shatner stealing Mexico touchers Posts: 5,313	Originally Posted by Matt the Poet I don't buy the idea that the socially inept will naturally read SF. Why not detective fiction or police procedurals? Or, indeed, techno-adventure thrillers of the Crichton kind? All of these, at their low end, provide the lack of troubling emotional complexity coupled with obsessive attention to detail that these people seem to crave? I don't think it is exclusive to Sci-fi. I was just using sci-fi as an example. It is that a particular type of the socialy inept gravitate towards sci-fi. And they happen to be the most visible for some reason. It could be that other onsessive fan who go gaga over detective and police programs are less ostracized because the shows or genera is more mainstream or they are less organized. You see some of the fans that go nuts over CSI. Quote: And on the flipside, how is it that nerdosity exists at all outside sci-fi. Are the buffoons who file around Dublin every Bloomsday in search of a cheese sandwich, or the Jane Austen wonks (truliy the Trekkies of 19th century litterature), going through the same psychological process? How can people with poor social skills even read Ulysses - it would surely require an understanding of the human condition that is beyond them? I don't think it is so much an issue of not understanding the human condition but rather an issue of execution of social skills in thier life. I understand singing, I just can't sing worth a darn. Quote: However, I suspect your penultimate paragraph is, depressingly, the key. Can it be just that there's money to be made from these people? A bit of laser-drenched hackwork, an afternoon signing autographs, cash in hand, ta? How awful... Well sci-fi conventions are primarily organized by the vendors. The rabble use it to network socially. For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby. It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time.
	__________________ Fourscore and seven years ago I tapped yo mama in a log cabin! Abe Lincoln

29th October 2007, 09:26 PM	#33
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by uruk For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby. It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time. Does anyone have a link to William Shatner's Star Trek Convention skit from Saturday Night Live? I laughed. I wept. I loaned my only copy and never got it back.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

30th October 2007, 05:43 AM	#34
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by uruk I don't think it is exclusive to Sci-fi. I was just using sci-fi as an example. It is that a particular type of the socialy inept gravitate towards sci-fi. And they happen to be the most visible for some reason. It could be that other onsessive fan who go gaga over detective and police programs are less ostracized because the shows or genera is more mainstream or they are less organized. You see some of the fans that go nuts over CSI. I don't think it is so much an issue of not understanding the human condition but rather an issue of execution of social skills in thier life. I understand singing, I just can't sing worth a darn. Well sci-fi conventions are primarily organized by the vendors. The rabble use it to network socially. For a good essay on Star Trek Fandom, watch "Trekkies 1 & 2" by Denise Crosby. It is funny, sad, and scary all at the same time. Actually, the real SF conventions are organized by the fans (to use examples from when I did more of this: Kubla Khan, Necronomicon, Oasis, Rivercon, Marcon, Rovacon, Deep South Con etc.). The large Media conventions (Star Trek Cons, Mega-Con, Creation etc.) are organized essentially for vendors, sometimes by promoters - who must balance vendor needs and what will draw crowds and sometimes by persons who are also vendors.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

30th October 2007, 06:37 AM	#35
Mobyseven President of Covert-Ops Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Not the Rat. Posts: 5,672	Hmmm...I can't speak for America, but I can say that in Australia the face of sci-fi is changing. This is primarily because the face of geek/nerd-dom has also changed, most importantly through the discovery of exercise and deodorant. I just watched an episode of Farscape. With two members of the opposite sex! See how things can change?
	__________________ "[Mobyseven is] a fantastically friendly, open, curious, happy, charming, sweet and adorable young man! And those are his bad points." - HistoryGal on Mobyseven "Damn, you're good." - Ichneumonwasp on Mobyseven