On the reluctance of professionals to comment on CT's

[Dave Rogers]

One of the common assertions of the truth movement is that there are in fact many professional engineers, firemen and demolition contractors who disagree with the "official story", but who are scared to speak out for fear of losing their jobs or being quietly murdered by the NWO. The suggestion is that there is no comparable level of intimidation on the other side, therefore the numbers of people publicly supporting the CT should be taken as an underestimate. I would like to question this assertion.

Yesterday, with my full agreement of course, Mark Roberts put a series of posts of mine criticising Steven Jones's paper on his website, and asked me if I'd like to add any biographical details. My immediate gut reaction was that I don't want to put too much detail out on myself, because at the very minimum I could end up on one of Kevin Barrett's death lists, and I might end up getting cyber-stalked by some nutter from Manchester. I know there are some highly qualified individuals on this forum - T.A.M. and Newtons Bit spring to mind immediately - who choose not to use their real names at all, and although I use mine I would prefer not to reveal enough information to allow myself to be identified (though I'm sure a determined stalker could do so). As long as I don't identify myself, I also don't establish my credentials, so I shouldn't really show up on a rigorously compiled list of professionals who support the "official story".

I wonder how much this is the case with others?

Dave

[timhau]

That's a good point. I always thought the "silence" of professionals is simply due to the fact that they are professsionals and there's a real, paycheck-producing demand for their services. Responding to idiot fantasies takes time and energy -- in fact, it can bear a remarkable resemblance to work -- but there's seldom any monetary reward. I can fully understand why e.g. a structural engineer would choose some other way to spend his/her free time.

[njslim]

Reminds me of old saying about fighting a skunk - Wind up getting the smell all over you,
but the skunk doesn't mind.

[gumboot]

I think the bottom line is 99% of experts in relevant fields simply don't care. In fact I'd be willing to bet the vast majority don't know anything about 9/11 CTs other than some vague awareness that there's some crazy people out there with some crazy notions of what happened that day.

-Gumboot

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I think most professionals refuse to comment on Conspiracy Theories in the same way that a person walking down the street refuses to debate the crazy homeless man who swears that he's talking to God, Jesus, and Napoleon who live together in an imaginary box in his hand.

Unfortunately we're the suckers who get drawn into that debate.

[Kryptos]

I was at a conference earlier this week, where Richard A. Clarke spoke. We also had a former head of Pakistan's ISI there who spoke, as did President Bush's homeland security and counterterrorism advisor, and other such folks. (journalists David Ignatius and Michael Ware; experts Fawaz Gergez, Paul Pillar, etc.)

I did not have any questions prepared to ask, though I definitely could have asked some, including about conspiracy theories. But you are required to put your name and affiliation on the comment cards. To these people, 9/11 conspiracy theories are so absurd and far out there. To even take them seriously and ask questions in front of this group, with my name attached to the questions would be embarrassing. I do not want to risk my professional reputation. I don't know why it's awkward for me, to bring up the topic of 9/11 conspiracy theories in a professional setting, but it is.

I wouldn't mind discussing and asking questions about conspiracy theories, should I get to meet with one of these people in private. (so I can explain where I'm coming from, why I'm asking, and not be so public about it)

[Whack01]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I think the bottom line is 99% of experts in relevant fields simply don't care. In fact I'd be willing to bet the vast majority don't know anything about 9/11 CTs other than some vague awareness that there's some crazy people out there with some crazy notions of what happened that day.

-Gumboot

It takes a lot of time to be a professional engineer, scientist or politician. When a person works a 12 hour day commutes 1 hour, eats 2 hours that leaves how much for sex, sleep, & children?

How important do CTs think they are that they expect these folks to neglect doing real work to address them? The thing I would do for CTs apart from anything else is just simply show them how HARD it actually is to learn, know and build things. It takes years of hard work just to get up to basic vector calculus let alone the dozens of other subjects required to master these things. Yet after an afternoons light reading they brand their countrymen murderers (READING if they actually were convinced by a book and not A FREAKING TV SHOW).

[Totovader]

To us- conspiracy theories are an oddity: they're fun to laugh at and to squash like a bug. We're doing our part to defend the memories of those individuals and protect the historic record from being manipulated by people with a childish agenda... but to the people in these professions, these conspiracists really aren't that interesting- they're just crazy and wrong.

There's also the unasked question at play, here. Many of these professionals may or may not know about the conspiracy theories- but speaking out against them is a waste of their time when they haven't been asked to do so.

If these conspiracy theories were to become more popular, more individuals would speak out against them- it's just the natural progression of things. The current population of 9/11 conspiracists is so small that most professionals barely give it a chuckle.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Not to mention some professionals know how *personal* CTers get when they get a hold of someone's real name.

Whether it's Buzz Aldrin having to punch a CTist in the face, or Gravy having to deal with Dylan telling his minions with murderous intent where to find him...

[timhau]

Originally Posted by Whack01

It takes a lot of time to be a professional engineer, scientist or politician. When a person works a 12 hour day commutes 1 hour, eats 2 hours that leaves how much for sex, sleep, & children?

Well, you can always skip sex, and then you don't have to worry about children either. It's like getting extra 2 hours to your day (and since you're not getting any, it feels like more!).

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Originally Posted by timhau

Well, you can always skip sex, and then you don't have to worry about children either. It's like getting extra 2 hours to your day (and since you're not getting any, it feels like more!).

And now you know why there is a small fringe of professionals who believe in CTs. They're not getting any sex to keep them rational!

[The Almond]

To echo the OP, I would never, ever want to put my professional credentials up anywhere on the internet. Since joining JREF in 2006, I have sensed a significant shift in the demographics of 9/11 truthers. After LC:2E and its internet sensation, the majority of truthers appeared to be (1) ignorant people who were taken in by what they thought were facts, (2) disaffected teenagers and (3) crazy people. Since then, groups (1) and (2) seem to have grown up, or have become educated. The group that was left behind, the crazy people, used to be the minority. They are now clearly the majority, and their methods for spreading the word appear to be based on fear, intimidation, death threats and shouting at public figures. Frankly, the truthers frighten me. I've spent most of my life trying not to associate with people that are crazy, and there is no way that I'm going to expose myself to another group of crazy people.

My colleagues at work, who represent a variety of civil, mechanical and electrical engineers, are amused by the concept of a 9/11 conspiracy theory. I've showed them Loose Change, and they all thought it was crazy. Not stupid, not ignorant, not wrong, it was just crazy. They think 9/11 truthers are a joke, and they would never dream that they needed a formal, educated response.

[Bell]

I also wonder why the Bushes, The Queen et al do not address the fact that Icke says they're shapshifting lizzards? If they don't deny it, does it mean they are? Or could they just not be arsed by those stupid allegations?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Originally Posted by Bell

I also wonder why the Bushes, The Queen et al do not address the fact that Icke says they're shapshifting lizzards? If they don't deny it, does it mean they are? Or could they just not be arsed by those stupid allegations?

I wish *not* denying something made it true.

Quick... Someone accuse me of being a millionaire!

[T.A.M.]

Dave:

While I appreciate the comment on my "qualifications", I do not think in terms of professional credentials, i am so. I do have the equivalent of an Associates Degree (3 year) in Electronic Engineering, I completed the course in the early 1990's, and then went on to do medicine...I have not put that education (the elect engineering) to use at all.

As for anonymity, I do so purely to protect my family and my patients. Call me paranoid (usually reserved for the truthers), but I have seen enough ridiculousness from some of the less stable truthers to think that protecting ones anonymity is justified when we post against this group, that includes many potentially dangerous people within.

TAM

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

As for anonymity, I do so purely to protect my family and my patients. Call me paranoid (usually reserved for the truthers), but I have seen enough ridiculousness from some of the less stable truthers to think that protecting ones anonymity is justified when we post against this group, that includes many potentially dangerous people within.

My point exactly. There are intelligent, well educated people on this forum whose arguments potentially carry less weight because we choose not to identify ourselves, to varying degrees, because that identification carries a risk of hostile acts (however trivial) from irrational individuals. I wonder how many other people with relevant qualifications look at the torrent of abusive and threatening online replies that greet the announcement by any public figure that they reject the conspiracy theory - George Monbiot, or the recent Cambridge University study, for example - and think, "I could offer some evidence against these theories too, but it's just not worth the risk"?

And of course the cost/benefit analysis is completely different for debunkers. A sincere conspiracist could convince themself that their actions are vital to the survival of a free society (however trivial those actions might then go on to be), so there is a perceived reward to balance against the risk of reprisals by the conspirators. Those of us who see no such conspiracy are, at best, arguing for an abstract ideal that truth is better than falsehood; we look for no beneficial changes in society because we see as imaginary the evils that conspiracists suggest infect the roots of our civilisation. It's very hard to take on an immediate risk, however small, for such an abstract gain, and it doesn't surprise me that for a great many people it might just seem like too much trouble.

Dave

[technoextreme]

Originally Posted by timhau

That's a good point. I always thought the "silence" of professionals is simply due to the fact that they are professsionals and there's a real, paycheck-producing demand for their services. Responding to idiot fantasies takes time and energy -- in fact, it can bear a remarkable resemblance to work -- but there's seldom any monetary reward. I can fully understand why e.g. a structural engineer would choose some other way to spend his/her free time.

There is a paper floating out there where an bunch of Engineers debunked/mentioned the WTC demolition. I think they realized that the CTs would have jumped all over the paper because of their comparison between the towers falling and CTs.

[Apollo20]

I have worked with Ph.D. scientists and engineers here in Canada for 25 years.

From time to time I have tried to engage some of these people in technical debates on such issues as Chernobyl, the Challenger and Columbia disasters, global warming, 9/11, etc, and have found, (with a few exceptions), an almost complete lack of interest in these issues.

Worse yet, I would have to say that most of these people thought it rather curious that I should even care about such things.

However, try talking about money, promotions, sex, buying or selling a house / car, or taking a trip to some exotic far away place and these people had plenty to say!

[Arus808]

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

Dave:
As for anonymity, I do so purely to protect my family and my patients. Call me paranoid (usually reserved for the truthers), but I have seen enough ridiculousness from some of the less stable truthers to think that protecting ones anonymity is justified when we post against this group, that includes many potentially dangerous people within.

TAM

The only thing I can put any weight to concerns about letting people who you know on the net are of course, My personal experience with such a kook , who decided to this with my personal information.

I helped someone with their website back in 1995, when the WWW was just known by those who could access it via their home ISP or at school. I find out later from another acquaintance, that the guy I helped out had posted my information to dating sites, gay/lesbian sites, and I was getting emails and phone calls from the "crazies". For reasons only known to him, I of course reported it to his ISP, but tracking back was easier back then.

However, this of course hurts me, if a future employer decides to search on the information I held back then; they would see these postings on these websites, that of course had nothing to do with me. Employers are now using the web to "google" their prospective employees, to see what they are apart of.

Which is why now, I only provide my information to those I trust or meet in person.


YOU do not want to go through what I had to go through. It took 9 months for me to get the ISP to do something about this kook, and nearly a year to get the postings removed from these dating websites, and some may still be up because the owners were not as "up to date" with these kinds of things. I had over 1000 emails received in the three months that my information was posted, and none of them I would like to have a minor see. I had to pay a fee to my ISP to get my email address changed because of these emails (and that was harder than you think) and of coures, change any information that had used that email address as a point of contact. Postings to only a handful of websites, cost me a year of aggravation.

[gumboot]

I have the bonus advantage of living in New Zealand which keeps me somewhat isolated and protected from the crazies, which is nice. I've only ever met one truther in real life, and despite being horribly wrong and thick-headed, he was very polite.

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

Originally Posted by Apollo20

I have worked with Ph.D. scientists and engineers here in Canada for 25 years.

From time to time I have tried to engage some of these people in technical debates on such issues as Chernobyl, the Challenger and Columbia disasters, global warming, 9/11, etc, and have found, (with a few exceptions), an almost complete lack of interest in these issues.

Worse yet, I would have to say that most of these people thought it rather curious that I should even care about such things.

However, try talking about money, promotions, sex, buying or selling a house / car, or taking a trip to some exotic far away place and these people had plenty to say!

That is sad, but also holds true for me. Though I have not tried to engage in 9/11 discussions with colleagues, and even though I know they would likely share my views, I have not bothered, as I know such things do not interest them, and the other things you mention would be more to their topical tastes.

TAM

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by njslim

Reminds me of old saying about fighting a skunk - Wind up getting the smell all over you,
but the skunk doesn't mind.

I prefer the Robert Heinlein variation: Never wrestle with a pig in the mud: You get all muddy and the Pig likes it.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Originally Posted by Apollo20

I have worked with Ph.D. scientists and engineers here in Canada for 25 years.

From time to time I have tried to engage some of these people in technical debates on such issues as Chernobyl, the Challenger and Columbia disasters, global warming, 9/11, etc, and have found, (with a few exceptions), an almost complete lack of interest in these issues.

Worse yet, I would have to say that most of these people thought it rather curious that I should even care about such things.

However, try talking about money, promotions, sex, buying or selling a house / car, or taking a trip to some exotic far away place and these people had plenty to say!

Chernobyl? Thread worthy? (I just have a personal fascination with the entire event)

[Pardalis]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I have the bonus advantage of living in New Zealand which keeps me somewhat isolated and protected from the crazies, which is nice.

Are you stickin' it to us?

[Architect]

Well, I wouldn't psot my contact details purely because I don't want spammed by these idiots at work.

I'm pretty sure my colleagues would wonder why I waste my time on the CTers, inasmuch as I've yet to actually meet a competent tall buildings professional who seems to support their theories. They simply attach no weight to it.

On the matter of proving professional credentials, however, I gave sufficient details to a trusted Mod. And Gravy, as it happens. And there are at least a few people in England have a pretty good idea of where I work now, given the projects we've discussed by PM.

[R.Mackey]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

One of the common assertions of the truth movement is that there are in fact many professional engineers, firemen and demolition contractors who disagree with the "official story", but who are scared to speak out for fear of losing their jobs or being quietly murdered by the NWO. The suggestion is that there is no comparable level of intimidation on the other side, therefore the numbers of people publicly supporting the CT should be taken as an underestimate. I would like to question this assertion.

I missed this interesting OP.

In my experience, the vast majority of professionals don't take a side, either way, in the 9/11 "Truth" debate simply because (a) they've never heard of it, or (b) they automatically write it off as a bunch of lunatics.

However, it is true that the fear of having your house egged, e-mail bombarded with spam, or getting bullhorned at 4 AM may be significant.

In my case, I've put my real name, real picture (yes, that's me at left), and position out on display. This decision was some time in coming. In my case, this decision carries little additional risk. My CV and other papers have been publicly available for years. My employer keeps a formidable array of lawyers on permanent retainer, and I know most of them personally (having negotiated several tricky IP and non-disclosure situations in my career). I live in a close-knit neighborhood with vigilant residents. I also happen to be exceptionally well armed. Before fully breaking cover, I set up an expendable e-mail account and took other defensive electronic measures besides.

In practice, all of this has thus far proven to be unnecessary, as apart from the occasional moron e-mailing to tell me that one day I'll "dance Danny Deaver" for my treachery, as Heinlein would say, the backlash from openly declaring myself against the Truth Movement has been nil. These folks just aren't that motivated, nor that numerous.

Similarly, few people I've spoken to professionally -- and I know a wide variety of aerospace professionals and scientists, in many countries -- have the foggiest idea that such insane ideas exist, let alone take them seriously. And to be honest, I'm the same way, too. While I've come out swinging against the lies of the Truth Movement, I've never bothered to speak out much against the UFO nuts, or the Kennedy Assassination crazies, or even the Moon Hoax believers, even though that last one irks me personally due to my profession. Like the Truth Movement, those folks just don't matter. Their entire personae are based on sheer idiocy, and have no impact on the real world. I pity them, but I don't know how to help them.

I think the only reason I've put some work into countering the Truth Movement, where I've let these other brands of stupidity run past me (and there are so many of them), is because I actually learned a lot from digging into the Truth Movement's claims. It's doubtful I'd have ever read NIST beyond the top-level summary, for instance. I might not have even heard about it. So as frustrating as they are, it wasn't a total waste of time for me. Others might not have seen much value to it.

So in summary, I think the majority of professionals are merely ignoring the Truth Movement, either passively (never heard of them) or actively (knowing they'll never amount to anything). And, to be honest, I think they are perfectly justified in doing so.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

<snip> or even the Moon Hoax believers, even though that last one irks me personally due to my profession.

Mackey, how much are the peeps at Nasa occupied by the Apollo hoax?

[Par]

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

Chernobyl? Thread worthy? (I just have a personal fascination with the entire event)

Ah, there is someone else then.

[T.A.M.]

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

I missed this interesting OP.

In my experience, the vast majority of professionals don't take a side, either way, in the 9/11 "Truth" debate simply because (a) they've never heard of it, or (b) they automatically write it off as a bunch of lunatics.

However, it is true that the fear of having your house egged, e-mail bombarded with spam, or getting bullhorned at 4 AM may be significant...So in summary, I think the majority of professionals are merely ignoring the Truth Movement, either passively (never heard of them) or actively (knowing they'll never amount to anything). And, to be honest, I think they are perfectly justified in doing so.

I would concur. I would venture to guess 99.99% of the people in my profession don't even know there is a "controversy" concerning 9/11.

If I were not a parent, husband, and health professional with thousands of patients, I would likely "come out" with respect to my actual identity. As I have always said, it is not myself I protect, but those who rely on me.

TAM

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkeyZero

And now you know why there is a small fringe of professionals who believe in CTs. They're not getting any sex to keep them rational!

The problem is that the King of the Potato People won't let them.



On another note I don't think employers could find anything about me on google. I have never released my real name to anyone, and a google search just gives 18,200 results, most of which are in German, and have nothing to do with me. And the English results do no better.

Oh dear, I spoke to soon.

Second page of English results only gives me a comment from a friend on Myspace. Well I think I'll never be employed by anyone then...

[pvt1863]

The only time my I hear my coworkers (all engineers) bring up 9/11 conspiracy theories is in a "can you believe there are people who think the government was behind 9/11" context. They see no point in going into it more. If they ever saw a real engineering approach to the problem that supported the conspiracy theories, they might change their mind. But as it is now, most CTers are only interested in asserting their positions over and over again without suppying any evidence or logic. Why should engineers be interested with that?

And Chernobyl is of great interest to me and my colleagues, but I guess that is a given when you work in nuclear engineering. I find that most engineers have little interest in events outside their particular discipline, but that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[R.Mackey]

Originally Posted by Bell

Mackey, how much are the peeps at Nasa occupied by the Apollo hoax?

In my experience, zero. The only time it comes up is when we need a good laugh.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

In my experience, zero. The only time it comes up is when we need a good laugh.

Okay, thanks.

I think it is save to asume (not based on your quote, but maybe backed up by your quote) that most professionals in whatever field don't know or don't care about the inside job.

If Nasa personel don't care much about the Apollo hoax (even though it implicits Nasa personel to be part of that hoax) why would a structural engineer in -say- Dubai care about the 9/11 conspiracy?