Why No Big Name Lady Magicians?

dudalb · 5th November 2007, 04:41 PM

I have always wondered why very few if any woman Magicians have reached the really,really,big time. Melinda,Mistress of Magic seemed on the verge of doing it a few years ago but sort of vanished since.
It's puzzling,because if anything the "sex appeal" factor should work in their favor.

The Central Scrutinizer · 5th November 2007, 07:38 PM

Maybe their boobs get in the way?

Bob Klase · 5th November 2007, 08:54 PM

Very few magicians at all reach the really, really big time. And, like most professions, it's only in recent years (the last 20-30) that women have reached the really, really big time in them. It's just a matter of time.

The sex appeal doesn't really work in their favor because I can't think of any magicians who have reached the really, really bit time that didn't have plenty of sex appeal provided by their female assistants. It probably did help Melinda. While she was a decent performer (IMO), she didn't quite have enough talent to reach the really really big time and her sex appeal did help her get further than her talent would have taken a male magician.

AgeGap · 6th November 2007, 04:09 AM

What proportion of people really interested in magic are women?
How many parents have bought their daughters a magic set?

Susheel · 6th November 2007, 05:31 AM

I hear P C Sorcar Jr.'s daughter is becoming quite popular as magician in India.
For those unfamiliar, P C Sorcar too is a rationalist and has had quite a few confrontations with local godmen, especially Sai Baba.

BenBurch · 6th November 2007, 05:38 AM

In terms of stage magic, men's clothes have more opportunities for concealment than women's clothes generally do.

tkingdoll · 6th November 2007, 10:40 AM

Magic has always been a male-dominated hobby and profession. In the UK, this can only have been fuelled by the fact that women weren't allowed to join the Magic Circle until 1991. It's no surprise that woman weren't interested in a hobby so surrounded by sexism. Plus on a practical level, it's very hard to get good at something if the men won't tell you their secrets.

And of course it takes time for the playing field to be levelled. Magic is full of old school types, and some individuals have sexist attitudes to go with it, sadly. Plus, it's hard for the public to welcome a female magician without precedent. All of the household names in magic have been men, with women playing the part of the glam assistant.

However, where young magician clubs used to be 99% boys, they are now 50% girls. Why? One word. Hermione. Whether or not those girls stick it out is yet to be seen but if they do, then in ten years we'll have a lot of good quality female magicians. One of them might even get famous!

rebecca · 6th November 2007, 11:00 AM

It's just like any other male-dominated profession. There exists a core of Good Ol' Boys who haven't taken women seriously and who don't encourage them to pursue magic as a career. Women are told they're too delicate, too pretty, not pretty enough, unable to command a stage, whatever.* So, less women bother trying. With less female role models, less little girls are interested in trying, too. Wash, rinse, repeat. (Edited to add: not to mention the sexism built into the profession: if there's a girl on stage, she's probably half-naked and about to get sawed in half or turned into a tiger.)

*Full disclosure: nobody ever told me that stuff, or if they did I wasn't listening. That comes from friends who've experienced that sort of thing. For my part, I've always heard the opposite -- that as a woman I should step up and do it, because I'd be unique and in demand and therefore able to bring in the cash. And my parents bought me magic kits as a kid.

Piscivore · 6th November 2007, 11:18 AM

Doug Henning spoiled it for all of them.

Wavicle · 6th November 2007, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by rebecca

(Edited to add: not to mention the sexism built into the profession: if there's a girl on stage, she's probably half-naked and about to get sawed in half or turned into a tiger.)

I'm not sure it is fair to call that "sexism built into the profession" when the outfit is usually a deliberate ruse to misdirect attention. Both men and women are predisposed to looking at a woman dressed as such. Part of successful performance depends on the women about to be sawn in half being half-naked.

Rob Lister · 6th November 2007, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

it's very hard to get good at something if the men won't tell you their secrets.

cry me a river, woman.

dudalb · 6th November 2007, 01:35 PM

Misdirection is why most magicians have "Lovely Magician's Assistants" in generally scanty clothing.Guaranteed to attract at least half the audiences eyeballs away from the Magician.
One Lady Magician I sorta like is Misty Rowe.She is pretty good but she carries the "Real Life Zatana" thing too freaking far.

Wowbagger · 6th November 2007, 01:48 PM

Did you mean Misty Lee? http://www.mistylee.com/

She's a fairly decently known name in magic.

dudalb · 6th November 2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Did you mean Misty Lee? http://www.mistylee.com/

She's a fairly decently known name in magic.

Ouch, My Bad. Yes,that is who I am speaking of.

sthomson · 6th November 2007, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by rebecca

*Full disclosure: nobody ever told me that stuff, or if they did I wasn't listening. That comes from friends who've experienced that sort of thing. For my part, I've always heard the opposite -- that as a woman I should step up and do it, because I'd be unique and in demand and therefore able to bring in the cash. And my parents bought me magic kits as a kid.

Odd, I heard the same thing when I started going for my engineering degree - "You'll get hired in no time - companies like to hire women to add to their diversity profile!"

I think it's sort of self-perpetuating: as more women get into magic, more women will excel at magic, which will encourage more girls to try magic. Sociologically, it might be an issue of how we learned our gender roles: women were taught to blend in, not to make a scene. Magic is all about making a scene.

dudalb · 6th November 2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Sociologically, it might be an issue of how we learned our gender roles: women were taught to blend in, not to make a scene. Magic is all about making a scene

You can say that about any area of Show Business,but there are a lot of extremely sucessful Female Actors and Musicians then there are Magicians. Three must be another explanation.

greymatters · 6th November 2007, 11:00 PM

Perhaps one reason magic has seen so few female performers for so long is that magic is traditionally about power (apparent power over life, death and the laws of nature), and that has been the traditional male domain.

It doesn't have to be just about power, though. In the current issue of Genii, Teller defines it this way: "Magic: The theatrical linking of a cause with an effect that has no basis in physical reality, but that - in our hearts - ought to."

Here are a few female magicians that have made it to the top:

Tina Lenert:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Luna Shimada:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Juliana Chen:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

sthomson · 7th November 2007, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You can say that about any area of Show Business,but there are a lot of extremely sucessful Female Actors and Musicians then there are Magicians. Three must be another explanation.

Well yes, that's true, but magic is a little different in that there are elements of controlling and deceiving the audience. In acting, the actor conceals themselves behind the character. In music, it's about the instruments or the songs. In magic, the magician IS the character, in a way.

Actually, speaking of music, women musicians and lead singers were very rare in the first decades of rock music. They were pretty rare in the first few years of punk and grunge music, too.

Wavicle · 7th November 2007, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by sthomson

Odd, I heard the same thing when I started going for my engineering degree - "You'll get hired in no time - companies like to hire women to add to their diversity profile!"

Somewhat offtopic, but I am curious... Did you have any trouble finding a job after you got your degree?

sthomson · 7th November 2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wavicle

Somewhat offtopic, but I am curious... Did you have any trouble finding a job after you got your degree?

Nope - I applied to three firms, got two offers, picked the one that didn't require a 45 mile commute through Los Angeles traffic.

Azrael 5 · 8th November 2007, 03:53 PM

Fay Presto anyone...?

Thought not.

Rrose Selavy · 9th November 2007, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Fay Presto anyone...?

Thought not.

Hmm, was about to mention that name. A pretty unremarkable performer except for the irony perhaps for those who don't know she apparently started life er..very differently to how she appears now - and I may be wrong but the official/unofficial UK magician's union - the Magic Circle - did not allow female members till relatively recently - early 90s - which didn't exactly encourage girls or women to folow the profession.

firecoins · 16th November 2007, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In terms of stage magic, men's clothes have more opportunities for concealment than women's clothes generally do.

yes but why would I watch a female magician with clothing that conceals?

Rrose Selavy · 16th November 2007, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by firecoins

yes but why would I watch a female magician with clothing that conceals?

Another opportunity for distraction - all the bettter to deceive you.......

-

greymatters · 16th November 2007, 11:20 AM

The Magic Cafe has a great forum called The Feminine Mystique, which is dedicated specifically to discussing women's issues in magic.

5th November 2007, 04:41 PM	#1
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14,455	Why No Big Name Lady Magicians? I have always wondered why very few if any woman Magicians have reached the really,really,big time. Melinda,Mistress of Magic seemed on the verge of doing it a few years ago but sort of vanished since. It's puzzling,because if anything the "sex appeal" factor should work in their favor.

5th November 2007, 07:38 PM	#2
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 21,723	Maybe their boobs get in the way?
	__________________ "I got to play with (Michael Goudeau's balls) briefly, and they are primo quality. Heavy, soft, and pliant." - Jeff Wagg "You are always so helpful, rational, and polite." - SaulOhio http://www.stopsylvia.com

6th November 2007, 04:09 AM	#4
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	What proportion of people really interested in magic are women? How many parents have bought their daughters a magic set?
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804

6th November 2007, 05:31 AM	#5
Susheel Scholar Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 102	I hear P C Sorcar Jr.'s daughter is becoming quite popular as magician in India. For those unfamiliar, P C Sorcar too is a rationalist and has had quite a few confrontations with local godmen, especially Sai Baba.
Susheel Scholar Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 102

6th November 2007, 05:38 AM	#6
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 13,788	In terms of stage magic, men's clothes have more opportunities for concealment than women's clothes generally do.
	__________________ A Liberal Dose of Talk Dog is my co-pilot. GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

5th November 2007, 08:54 PM	#3
Bob Klase Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Largo, FL Posts: 2,445	Very few magicians at all reach the really, really big time. And, like most professions, it's only in recent years (the last 20-30) that women have reached the really, really big time in them. It's just a matter of time. The sex appeal doesn't really work in their favor because I can't think of any magicians who have reached the really, really bit time that didn't have plenty of sex appeal provided by their female assistants. It probably did help Melinda. While she was a decent performer (IMO), she didn't quite have enough talent to reach the really really big time and her sex appeal did help her get further than her talent would have taken a male magician.

6th November 2007, 10:40 AM	#7
tkingdoll AKA TEEK Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Up Myself Posts: 12,468	Magic has always been a male-dominated hobby and profession. In the UK, this can only have been fuelled by the fact that women weren't allowed to join the Magic Circle until 1991. It's no surprise that woman weren't interested in a hobby so surrounded by sexism. Plus on a practical level, it's very hard to get good at something if the men won't tell you their secrets. And of course it takes time for the playing field to be levelled. Magic is full of old school types, and some individuals have sexist attitudes to go with it, sadly. Plus, it's hard for the public to welcome a female magician without precedent. All of the household names in magic have been men, with women playing the part of the glam assistant. However, where young magician clubs used to be 99% boys, they are now 50% girls. Why? One word. Hermione. Whether or not those girls stick it out is yet to be seen but if they do, then in ten years we'll have a lot of good quality female magicians. One of them might even get famous!
	__________________ www.stormmovie.net Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie Last edited by tkingdoll; 6th November 2007 at 10:41 AM.

6th November 2007, 11:00 AM	#8
rebecca Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: some other spring Posts: 6,852	It's just like any other male-dominated profession. There exists a core of Good Ol' Boys who haven't taken women seriously and who don't encourage them to pursue magic as a career. Women are told they're too delicate, too pretty, not pretty enough, unable to command a stage, whatever.* So, less women bother trying. With less female role models, less little girls are interested in trying, too. Wash, rinse, repeat. (Edited to add: not to mention the sexism built into the profession: if there's a girl on stage, she's probably half-naked and about to get sawed in half or turned into a tiger.) *Full disclosure: nobody ever told me that stuff, or if they did I wasn't listening. That comes from friends who've experienced that sort of thing. For my part, I've always heard the opposite -- that as a woman I should step up and do it, because I'd be unique and in demand and therefore able to bring in the cash. And my parents bought me magic kits as a kid.
	Last edited by rebecca; 6th November 2007 at 11:04 AM.

6th November 2007, 11:18 AM	#9
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Yubaba's Bathhouse Posts: 19,130	Doug Henning spoiled it for all of them.
	__________________ A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key- "is it to be or not to be?"- and I replied "oh why ask me?" Does it get tiring to be correct about everything? - Francesca R ...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp. - CFLarsen

6th November 2007, 12:00 PM	#10
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 318	Originally Posted by rebecca (Edited to add: not to mention the sexism built into the profession: if there's a girl on stage, she's probably half-naked and about to get sawed in half or turned into a tiger.) I'm not sure it is fair to call that "sexism built into the profession" when the outfit is usually a deliberate ruse to misdirect attention. Both men and women are predisposed to looking at a woman dressed as such. Part of successful performance depends on the women about to be sawn in half being half-naked.
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 318

6th November 2007, 12:01 PM	#11
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,525	Originally Posted by tkingdoll it's very hard to get good at something if the men won't tell you their secrets. cry me a river, woman.

6th November 2007, 01:35 PM	#12
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14,455	Misdirection is why most magicians have "Lovely Magician's Assistants" in generally scanty clothing.Guaranteed to attract at least half the audiences eyeballs away from the Magician. One Lady Magician I sorta like is Misty Rowe.She is pretty good but she carries the "Real Life Zatana" thing too freaking far.

6th November 2007, 01:48 PM	#13
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 7,725	Did you mean Misty Lee? http://www.mistylee.com/ She's a fairly decently known name in magic.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC 2009: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ Photos and Stuff Now Available A conference on science and skepticism where *you* could be a presenter! Last edited by Wowbagger; 6th November 2007 at 01:50 PM.

6th November 2007, 02:51 PM	#14
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14,455	Originally Posted by Wowbagger Did you mean Misty Lee? http://www.mistylee.com/ She's a fairly decently known name in magic. Ouch, My Bad. Yes,that is who I am speaking of.

6th November 2007, 03:24 PM	#15
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706	Originally Posted by rebecca Full disclosure: nobody ever told me that stuff, or if they did I wasn't listening. That comes from friends who've experienced that sort of thing. For my part, I've always heard the opposite -- that as a woman I should step up and do it, because I'd be unique and in demand and therefore able to bring in the cash. And my parents bought me magic kits as a kid. Odd, I heard the same thing when I started going for my engineering degree - "You'll get hired in no time - companies like to hire women to add to their diversity profile!" I think it's sort of self-perpetuating: as more women get into magic, more women will excel at magic, which will encourage more girls to try magic. Sociologically, it might be an issue of how we learned our gender roles: women were taught to blend in, not to make a scene. Magic is all about* making a scene.
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706	Last edited by sthomson; 6th November 2007 at 03:25 PM.

6th November 2007, 05:50 PM	#16
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14,455	Quote: Sociologically, it might be an issue of how we learned our gender roles: women were taught to blend in, not to make a scene. Magic is all about making a scene You can say that about any area of Show Business,but there are a lot of extremely sucessful Female Actors and Musicians then there are Magicians. Three must be another explanation.

7th November 2007, 08:23 AM	#18
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706	Originally Posted by dudalb You can say that about any area of Show Business,but there are a lot of extremely sucessful Female Actors and Musicians then there are Magicians. Three must be another explanation. Well yes, that's true, but magic is a little different in that there are elements of controlling and deceiving the audience. In acting, the actor conceals themselves behind the character. In music, it's about the instruments or the songs. In magic, the magician IS the character, in a way. Actually, speaking of music, women musicians and lead singers were very rare in the first decades of rock music. They were pretty rare in the first few years of punk and grunge music, too.
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706

7th November 2007, 01:33 PM	#19
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 318	Originally Posted by sthomson Odd, I heard the same thing when I started going for my engineering degree - "You'll get hired in no time - companies like to hire women to add to their diversity profile!" Somewhat offtopic, but I am curious... Did you have any trouble finding a job after you got your degree?
Wavicle Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 318

7th November 2007, 01:51 PM	#20
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706	Originally Posted by Wavicle Somewhat offtopic, but I am curious... Did you have any trouble finding a job after you got your degree? Nope - I applied to three firms, got two offers, picked the one that didn't require a 45 mile commute through Los Angeles traffic.
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 706

8th November 2007, 03:53 PM	#21
Azrael 5 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 4,220	Fay Presto anyone...? Thought not.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Photography here Last edited by Azrael 5; 8th November 2007 at 03:53 PM.

9th November 2007, 10:47 AM	#22
Rrose Selavy Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Fay Presto anyone...? Thought not. Hmm, was about to mention that name. A pretty unremarkable performer except for the irony perhaps for those who don't know she apparently started life er..very differently to how she appears now - and I may be wrong but the official/unofficial UK magician's union - the Magic Circle - did not allow female members till relatively recently - early 90s - which didn't exactly encourage girls or women to folow the profession.
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 9th November 2007 at 10:49 AM.

16th November 2007, 04:52 AM	#23
firecoins Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack, NY Posts: 3,065	Originally Posted by BenBurch In terms of stage magic, men's clothes have more opportunities for concealment than women's clothes generally do. yes but why would I watch a female magician with clothing that conceals?
	__________________ NY Paramedic, skeptic, 9/11/01 Reality-ist. I am both right wing nut and left wing lunatic. Deal with it.

16th November 2007, 05:56 AM	#24
Rrose Selavy Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,156	Originally Posted by firecoins yes but why would I watch a female magician with clothing that conceals? Another opportunity for distraction - all the bettter to deceive you....... -

16th November 2007, 11:20 AM	#25
greymatters Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 751	The Magic Cafe has a great forum called The Feminine Mystique, which is dedicated specifically to discussing women's issues in magic.
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