Jerusalem Post Editorial: Kill Arafat

[EvilYeti]

Enough.

Fine with me.

[espritch]

Quote:

"We must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative," the English-language daily wrote in an editorial entitled Enough.

Cute. Let's kill Arafat and then blame "the world" for it.

Quote:

"Arafat's death at Israel's hands would not radicalise Arab opposition to Israel; just the opposite. The current jihad against us is being fuelled by the perception that Israel is blocked from taking decisive action to defend itself," the right-wing paper added.

Translation: there's nothing wronge with Israel that a few more dead Palestinians won't solve.

[Grammatron]

Quote:

Originally posted by espritch


Cute. Let's kill Arafat and then blame "the world" for it.



Translation: there's nothing wronge with Israel that a few more dead Palestinians won't solve.

Both sides are bordering idiocy and self annihilation at this point. I would give up on them both equally, but I think Palestine takes the cake of self annihilation and idiocy with targeting civilians in their bombings.

[Cleopatra]

Come-on espritch from all the threads about Arafat you chose this one to post, a thread that is about an editorial of a newspaper and it has a provocative title.

You just showed how much you care.

Wait for a moment and Unique and the other "usual suspects" will join you and all of you will have one of your usual parties about two countries you know very little about them ( You started googling about ME only a week ago according to your posts)

Enjoy your party!!

[espritch]

Quote:

Both sides are bordering idiocy and self annihilation at this point. I would give up on them both equally, but I think Palestine takes the cake of self annihilation and idiocy with targeting civilians in their bombings.

I agree that blowing up a bus load of children didn't do anything good for the Palestinian cause. I think even Hamas realized that one was counter productive. I noticed their latest attack was directed at a group of soldiers instead.

[hgc]

Quote:

Originally posted by espritch


I agree that blowing up a bus load of children didn't do anything good for the Palestinian cause. I think even Hamas realized that one was counter productive. I noticed their latest attack was directed at a group of soldiers instead.

Ah, you agree that it doesn't do any good to the Palestinian cause, but do you agree that it's the wrong thing to do morally? I also notice your clever bit of data selection above. There were 2 bombings the other day, one targeting a cafe -- not filled with soldiers.

[KelvinG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron


Both sides are bordering idiocy and self annihilation at this point. I would give up on them both equally, but I think Palestine takes the cake of self annihilation and idiocy with targeting civilians in their bombings.

Ditto.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron


Both sides are bordering idiocy and self annihilation at this point. I would give up on them both equally, but I think Palestine takes the cake of self annihilation and idiocy with targeting civilians in their bombings.

Sure. And Isreal doesnt kill civillians either.

Woopdeedoo lets kill Arafat. Then everything will be just peachy.

[Furious]

Quote:

Sure. And Isreal doesnt kill civillians either.

Subtle difference in target selection. Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians for effect, it targets terrorists hiding out in civilian areas.

What makes Palestinian suicide bombers terrorists and not militants/freedom fighters is the simple fact that military targets are free and open to attack, but instead they choose civilian targets in crowded areas to maximize casualties. What makes the Palestinians as a whole look really bad is their popular support of Arafat who supports these methods.

As long as Arafat is alive and relevant, there will be no peace. Killing him outright won't solve the problem though, as he then becomes their greatest martyr.

I wouldn't mind people blowing themselves up in defense of their homeland if they didn't do it in such a cowardly fashion. Knowingly putting your own civiliation population at risk and intentionally targeting the enemy's civilians shows me your true character.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by Furious


Subtle difference in target selection. Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians for effect, it targets terrorists hiding out in civilian areas.

Hiding in civillian areas? are there designated terrorist only areas in the palestinian ghetto? You say that Isreal doesnt intentionally target civillians for effect (which is debatable, but you must concede it does absoluetly nothing to try and minimize civillian deaths.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by Furious

What makes Palestinian suicide bombers terrorists and not militants/freedom fighters is the simple fact that military targets are free and open to attack, but instead they choose civilian targets in crowded areas to maximize casualties. What makes the Palestinians as a whole look really bad is their popular support of Arafat who supports these methods.

Military targets are also attacked. Arafat has often condemned suicide bombings out of hand. Where do you get this 'Arafat supports terror' stuff anyway?

Quote:

Originally posted by Furious
I wouldn't mind people blowing themselves up in defense of their homeland if they didn't do it in such a cowardly fashion. Knowingly putting your own civiliation population at risk and intentionally targeting the enemy's civilians shows me your true character.

Yes I agree that the Isrealis are very cowardly, using F16s to fire missiles into civillian areas. etc etc...

[Grammatron]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Sure. And Isreal doesnt kill civillians either.

Woopdeedoo lets kill Arafat. Then everything will be just peachy.

Please read what my post before distorting it completely and utterly. I never said Israel doesn't kill civilians I said that Palestine TARGETS civilians. If you can't see a difference between launching a missiles into a house where a known terrorist lives and ACCIDENTALLY killing someone or putting on a bomb, going to a crowded market/cafe/hotel/bus and blowing up civilians just terrorize them then I am very sorry for you.

[Furious]

Quote:

Military targets are also attacked. Arafat has often condemned suicide bombings out of hand. Where do you get this 'Arafat supports terror' stuff anyway?

Not saying military targets aren't attacked. It is the blatant targetting of civilians for effect I have an issue with.

While I concede Arafat doesn't support civilian targets in his speeches, you have to agree he is either unwilling or unable to stop them either. Given that you don't support Israel's methods of protecting its civilians and Arafat's inability to do so, how do you propose stopping bombings of Israeli civilians? I've yet to hear anyone answer that question adequately.

Also, I meant to highlight the method of "kill something, and then hide among the populace" as being supported by Arafat more than his condoning civilian killing. While he may not support the civilian side of the targetting, I bet he still supports the hit-and-hide methods against military targets. Are you saying Israel shouldn't defend against attacks on military targets?

Quote:

Hiding in civillian areas? are there designated terrorist only areas in the palestinian ghetto? You say that Isreal doesnt intentionally target civillians for effect (which is debatable, but you must concede it does absoluetly nothing to try and minimize civillian deaths.

Fine, I'll concede Israel is cavalier with Palestinian civilians. You have to concede it isn't killing civilians to make itself internationally legitimate or popular with its fellow Jewish allies and that a vast majority of civilian deaths occur when a terrorist is the overt target.

As for designated terrorist areas in the Palestinian ghetto, you highlighted my issue. They are knowingly putting their own civilians at risk by not separating themselves and becoming completely legitimate military targets.

Why are hiding among the civilian population? Because they know damn well that to separate themselves would mean death, and no one in the international community would give a rat's ass. Very few people care that Israel is killing terrorists, it is how Israel screws up and kill civilians (intentionally or not is something we'll just have to disagree on I suspect) that other countries get upset.


I am perfectly fine with guerilla type warfare of hiding in the hills or forests. It is the use of human shielding I despise.

Fair enough assessment?

[espritch]

Cleopatra:

Quote:

Come-on espritch from all the threads about Arafat you chose this one to post, a thread that is about an editorial of a newspaper and it has a provocative title.

You just showed how much you care.

Do you agree with the contention of the Jerusalem Post editorial that Arafat should be killed? If so, why do you see turning him into a martyr as helping the situation?

Do you agree with the assertion from the article that the “jihad against us is being fuelled by the perception that Israel is blocked from taking decisive action to defend itself”? What kind of decisive action do you think they’re referring to? Are they just talking about Arafat?

If, on the other hand, you don’t agree with the contents of the editorial, then why castigate me for pointing out the absurdity of it?

hgc:

Quote:

Ah, you agree that it doesn't do any good to the Palestinian cause, but do you agree that it's the wrong thing to do morally?

Yes, I think it’s morally wrong. Why would you even ask such a question?

Quote:

I also notice your clever bit of data selection above. There were 2 bombings the other day, one targeting a cafe -- not filled with soldiers.

Nothing particularly clever about it, just a rather stupid oversight on my part. Proves I shouldn’t post too far past my bed time.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Cleopatra
Wait for a moment and Unique and the other "usual suspects"...

Suspected of what? Having an opinion based on facts? Is that not allowed where you come from?

In case you hadn't noticed people do not have to be citizens of a country before they are allowed to read factual material and come to an opinion about the antics of that country. It is what is known as free speech.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Furious
It is the blatant targetting of civilians for effect I have an issue with.

Then you will presumably have no hesitation in condeming without equivocation all states which assassinate people without trial in a way that guarantees innocent children are killed?

Do you agree that it is wrong in a democracy to murder people without trial?

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Grammatron
I said that Palestine TARGETS civilians.

Please provide evidence to support your claim that Palestine as an entity TARGETS civilians.

Israel deliberately targets suspects - please note suspects, not people tried under the rules of law - with air launched missiles in circumstances which routinely guarantee the death of innocent children. In the opinion of many around the world those actions terrorise the ordinary people of Palestine.

The people of Israel should not be attacked and neither should innocent people in Palestine.

[Ben Shniper]

Arafat is a tyrant, a terrorist, and a popular one because he's seen to target just Jews and Muslims, who Christians think he leaves alone. Never mind that he has trained several terrorists who ended up in Al Queda, one of whom (a palestinian trained under Arafat's PLO) was the mastermind behind the September 11th attacks (Al Sheik).

My point is not that Arafat is directly or indirectly responsible for September 11th, although the 2000 deaths in Israel recently on both sides was entirely his doing. My point is that all terrorism is quite closely connected. Even the IRA is known to have cross-trained with Palestinian terrorists, and just as the Americans used to support Osama when he was fighting the Russians, Arafat was trained by the Russians when he was in the PLO.

Not killing Arafat, while killing Osama bin Laden and Saddam is a goal of the Anti-terrorist coalition of Bush, sends a double message. There are no "good terrorists" and "bad terrorists". Arafat is not a "reformed terrorist". He has sowed grief all over Israel for the last two and a half years, and it is time for him to pay the price.

"But he didn't do it"? Of COURSE HE DID. Al Asqa martyr brigades was his own organization, directly reporting to Arafat by their own admission. And Hamas was protected by Arafat, who fought back politically and physically whenever Hamas was attacked, no matter how unquestionably evil the Hamas targets were, he even was caught tipping off Hamas as to Israeli planned strikes.

Kill him.

-Ben

[Gem]

Quote:

he even was caught tipping off Hamas as to Israeli planned strikes.

You mean the IDF tells Arafat where they're going to strike? No wonder Isreal wants to kill him, he knows exactly where and when Isreal is going to strike!

Seriously though: I think this is just loud talk, like North Korea did with their Nuclear program. I seriously doubt Isreal will actually kill him, now that people are rallying with him.

Gem

[Kevin_Lowe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Furious
I am perfectly fine with guerilla type warfare of hiding in the hills or forests. It is the use of human shielding I despise.

Fair enough assessment? [/b]

I think it invites the response "What do you think the Palestinians should do? What's the moral way for them?".

It seems to me they haven't got many great options.

Give up violence, raise bountiful gardens in the fertile soil, build a few factories and become the next Japan?

Lay down their arms and hope Israel gives them back their houses?

Take up arms against a vastly superior army in open conflict?

It's an absolute hell of a mess, and there are neither simple solutions nor simple moral judgements as to who is a bad guy and who is a good guy.

It's not going to be a nice part of the world to live in unless both the Palestinian and Israeli ruling elites undergo some major changes.

[Ben Shniper]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gem


You mean the IDF tells Arafat where they're going to strike? No wonder Isreal wants to kill him, he knows exactly where and when Isreal is going to strike!

Seriously though: I think this is just loud talk, like North Korea did with their Nuclear program. I seriously doubt Isreal will actually kill him, now that people are rallying with him.

Gem

The whole point of the Oslo accords was for "security cooperation", which means that closed door security meetings between high level Palestinians and Israeli security commanders would track down terrorists threatening the peace. Obviously, Hamas terrorists were not offen found for the last two years of total destruction.

Arafat had nothing to do with it, and in recent days he called for millions of martyrs to wipe out everyone in Israel.

-Ben

[oneofshibumi]

A few weeks before the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising (Intifada) in December 1987, a minor event took place in Gaza. A Palestinian girl, Intissar al-Atar, was shot and killed in a schoolyard by a resident of the nearby Jewish settlement of Gush Katif. The murderer, Shimon Yifrah, as arrested a month later and released on bail because the Supreme Court determined that “the offensive is not severe enough” to warrant detention. In September 1989 he was acquitted of all charges except causing death by negligence. The judge nonted that he only intended to shock the girl by firing his gun at her in a schoolyard, not to kill her, so “this is not a case of a criminal person who has to be punished, deterred, and taught a lesson by imprisoning him.” Yifrah was given a seven-month suspended sentence, while settlers in the courtroom broke out in song an dance.(1)


Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organizations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

Under the new law, rushed through on August 1, 2003, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship. Now Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.(2)

Of course the American press would never print stories like these. Let’s get real people. Israel is the 4th most powerful military power in the world. If you want a real account of who is doing the terrorism in Israel-Palestine look at the stories you never read in the U.S. press. In fact, last year 64 U.N. workers from Spain, France, U.S., Israel, India, Australia, and other countries asked Israel to stop beating and killing them while they evacuated women and children.(3) Unfortunately, the American free press didn’t consider such a story important. Remember, for every one Israeli killed, 4 Palestinians are killed. But I am sure no one in the U.S. would get that impression by the American mass media. When in 2000, Israel killed 300 Palestinians compared to 30 Jews (5), little was said in the media. Now that the killing is a little more balanced, the U.S. media paints the Palestinians as the ones who are killing indiscriminately. Or when they speak of the generous Israeli peace offer, they do not give details (6).



(1) Chronology, Middle East Journal, Spring 1988; Attorney Avigdor Feldman, Hadashot, Jan. 1, 1988.
(2) http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...22&ItemID=3989
(3) http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/un-petition.htm
(4) http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/israel_killings.html
(5) http://www.fair.org/extra/0101/intifada.html
(6) http://fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html

[Cleopatra]

Thank God you came to illuminate us!

Most of the people don't care about the Nazi State of Israel and its attrocities it's nice to have another member who doesn't care if he becomes unpopular.

Please post something about the Israelis that hate Arabs and they want to drink their blood.

Somebody must break the news about the nazi-Israelis!!!

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Thank God you came to illuminate us!

Most of the people don't care about the Nazi State of Israel and its attrocities it's nice to have another member who doesn't care if he becomes unpopular.

Please post something about the Israelis that hate Arabs and they want to drink their blood.

Somebody must break the news about the nazi-Israelis!!!

I don't think it's a case of the Israeli's are Nazis, its a case of Israel pretending to be something it is not, and acting accordingly.

[demon]

"He who controls the present, controls the past."...nice post oneofshibumi.

I`m sick of Israel and the US whining about Palestinian aggression...what a typical diversionary tactic from the REAL aggression that takes place, day in, day out in the occupied territories...the despicable IDF, the crazy fundamentalist settlers and the bulldozers that kill and destroy a centuries old heritage.

To listen to the media one would think the "only" aggression the Palestinians have to worry about is the "occasional" attack by Israel to take out one of the conveniently named "militants". It`s a sick way of covering up the concerted effort of Israel to make life so hard for the Palestinians that they just give up and leave. The hidden suffering of these brave people is huge and the architects and apologists for their suffering are beneath contempt.

Let me repeat the last part of your post, it`s worth doing.

"Of course the American press would never print stories like these. Let’s get real people. Israel is the 4th most powerful military power in the world. If you want a real account of who is doing the terrorism in Israel-Palestine look at the stories you never read in the U.S. press. In fact, last year 64 U.N. workers from Spain, France, U.S., Israel, India, Australia, and other countries asked Israel to stop beating and killing them while they evacuated women and children.(3) Unfortunately, the American free press didn’t consider such a story important. Remember, for every one Israeli killed, 4 Palestinians are killed. But I am sure no one in the U.S. would get that impression by the American mass media. When in 2000, Israel killed 300 Palestinians compared to 30 Jews (5), little was said in the media. Now that the killing is a little more balanced, the U.S. media paints the Palestinians as the ones who are killing indiscriminately. Or when they speak of the generous Israeli peace offer, they do not give details (6).

(1) Chronology, Middle East Journal, Spring 1988; Attorney Avigdor Feldman, Hadashot, Jan. 1, 1988.
(2) http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...=22&ItemID=3989
(3) http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/un-petition.htm
(4) http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/israel_killings.html
(5) http://www.fair.org/extra/0101/intifada.html
(6) http://fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html"

As a_unique_ person said recently: "JREF used to be a cosy little club of uncritical supporters of Israel. No longer."

This is true here and in many other places too. Relying on the Holocaust Industry to deflect attention away from a policy of racist oppression and ethnic cleansing has gone unquestioned for far too long...time to reveal Israel and it`s apologists for what they really are.

Welcome to the forums.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Ben Schniper
Kill him.

You just cannot make this stuff up. Jedi Knight rules KO.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Cl;eopatra
Please post something about the Israelis that hate Arabs and they want to drink their blood.

Aren't you just being a tad ridiculous now?

Isn't the whole world is entitled to know about the atrocities committed in the Middle East whether by Israel or anyone else?

If you have something sensible to say why not say it?

[Furious]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


I think it invites the response "What do you think the Palestinians should do? What's the moral way for them?".

It seems to me they haven't got many great options.

Give up violence, raise bountiful gardens in the fertile soil, build a few factories and become the next Japan?

Lay down their arms and hope Israel gives them back their houses?

Take up arms against a vastly superior army in open conflict?

It's an absolute hell of a mess, and there are neither simple solutions nor simple moral judgements as to who is a bad guy and who is a good guy.

It's not going to be a nice part of the world to live in unless both the Palestinian and Israeli ruling elites undergo some major changes.

I agree that they don't have many options. However, neither does any other terrorist organization, so if you use the rationale that when there are no other options, terrorism is justified, you open yourself up to justification of 9/11, the U.N. bombings, IRA bombs, etc.

Israeli missile strikes are condemnable for sure, but I don't put them on par what suicide bombers do. Reckless endangerment (or am I thinking manslaughter?) is not the same thing as calculated murder. My position would soften considerably if only military targets were selected by extremists, however, this isn't the case.

I am in no way pro-Israel or anti-Palestinian. I hold no illusions that if the roles were reversed, Israeli fundamentalists would not be taking similar actions. I am condemning the acts of what I know are extremists who are not reigned in at all by their government other than flowery speeches (I'll grant that whether Arafat could or not is open to debate).

You know what, screw it. If the U.S. agrees to pull it's funding from Israel and the neighboring Arab states and the EU withdraws its funding from the PA, let's let em duke it out on their own terms, civilians be damned. Israel will wipe out the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states will wipe out Israel and everyone's happy.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Furious
Reckless endangerment (or am I thinking manslaughter?) is not the same thing as calculated murder.

I trust that you would take the same view when your baby sister is out playing in the street and the state governer orders a helicopter based missle strike on a suspected murderer (note suspected - not someone tried under the rule of law) riding in his car down your street and as a direct and predictable result of this action your baby sister is killed. Would you still see this as simply reckless endangerment and give him the benefit of the doubt? I respectfully doubt it very much.

By deliberately assassinating people without trial in circumstances which effectively guarantee the death of innocent children Israel is terrorising the innocent people of Palestine.

Israelis are entitled to be be free from terror as are all innocent Palestinians. All people including Palestinians and Israelis are also entitled to respect and human dignity, unfortunately Israel is turning into an apartheid state with little apparent respect for decent, democratic and lawful norms.

[rikzilla]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Military targets are also attacked. Arafat has often condemned suicide bombings out of hand. Where do you get this 'Arafat supports terror' stuff anyway?

Well Jon...time to wake up and smell the coffee my man. Pull your head out of the sand for one small moment and consider the fate of the helpless Leon Klinghofer....or this:

Quote:

Very few people know that 30 years ago Arafat's Al Fatah had a terrorist arm called Black September, which was responsible for the massacre of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics, a brutal deed that shocked the world.

Still fewer know that in March 1973, Arafat ordered a Black September attack on the Saudi Embassy in Sudan, where our Ambassador Cleo Noel, our Deputy Chief of Mission George C. Moore and Belgian diplomat Guy Eid were taken hostage at a reception. They were brutally murdered, said to have been shot in a way that made their deaths especially agonizing.

Arafat's crimes are legion. Why this creep wasn't taken out years ago is a major mystery of our time.

-z

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron


Please read what my post before distorting it completely and utterly. I never said Israel doesn't kill civilians I said that Palestine TARGETS civilians. If you can't see a difference between launching a missiles into a house where a known terrorist lives and ACCIDENTALLY killing someone or putting on a bomb, going to a crowded market/cafe/hotel/bus and blowing up civilians just terrorize them then I am very sorry for you.

While I generally take your point, I think the use of the word "Accidental" is wrong - it implies that the other deaths were an unforseen consequence. Whereas in reality if you put a missile into a block of flats you might easily forsee that other people would be killed. "Incidental" is perhaps a better word. The Israelis know that other people will be killed but regard that as acceptable. I'm not sure that it's all that different to blowing up a block of flats which doesn't have a terrorist in it.

[rikzilla]

Quote:

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong

I trust that you would take the same view when your baby sister is out playing in the street and the state governer orders a helicopter based missle strike on a suspected murderer (note suspected - not someone tried under the rule of law) riding in his car down your street and as a direct and predictable result of this action your baby sister is killed. Would you still see this as simply reckless endangerment and give him the benefit of the doubt? I respectfully doubt it very much.

Apples and oranges EJ. Israel/Palestine is a war zone, not a high crime area. That's what the intifada has made it. The Palestinians could adopt a non-violent form of civil protest instead of making war on Israel's transit authority. Every Israeli reprisal has been just that...a reprisal, a reaction to terrorist attacks on helpless civilians. A simple concept, which you seem not to be able to grasp.

Quote:

By deliberately assassinating people without trial in circumstances which effectively guarantee the death of innocent children Israel is terrorising the innocent people of Palestine.

Terrorists not only target innocent civilians, they hide among them like the cowards they are. In war, combatants are "deliberately assasinated"...that's why they call it war.

Quote:

Israelis are entitled to be be free from terror as are all innocent Palestinians. All people including Palestinians and Israelis are also entitled to respect and human dignity, unfortunately Israel is turning into an apartheid state with little apparent respect for decent, democratic and lawful norms.

Israelis are entitled to be be free from terror as are all innocent Palestinians. All people including Palestinians and Israelis are also entitled to respect and human dignity. Unfortunately militant terrorists who have no respect for human life have turned Israel/Palestine/West Bank/Gaza into a war zone...and then complain that Palestinians are made to live in a war zone.

-z

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


I think it invites the response "What do you think the Palestinians should do? What's the moral way for them?".

It seems to me they haven't got many great options.

Give up violence, raise bountiful gardens in the fertile soil, build a few factories and become the next Japan?

Lay down their arms and hope Israel gives them back their houses?

Take up arms against a vastly superior army in open conflict?

It's an absolute hell of a mess, and there are neither simple solutions nor simple moral judgements as to who is a bad guy and who is a good guy.

It's not going to be a nice part of the world to live in unless both the Palestinian and Israeli ruling elites undergo some major changes.

They might try something novel, that is taking the moral high ground. They might try non-violent protest. They might leverage the world's media more effectively.People here make it seem that there is a false dicotomy. Either the palestinians murder civilians or they never get their freedom. That is absurd.

Hmm... come to think of it, why are they not trying to become another Japan? Seems the money that they get would more profitably be used for infrastructure than arms. Why is that do you think?

"Give up violence, raise bountiful gardens in the fertile soil, build a few factories and become the next Japan? "

Seems the Jews are doing just that.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla


Apples and oranges EJ. Israel/Palestine is a war zone, not a high crime area. That's what the intifada has made it. The Palestinians could adopt a non-violent form of civil protest instead of making war on Israel's transit authority. Every Israeli reprisal has been just that...a reprisal, a reaction to terrorist attacks on helpless civilians. A simple concept, which you seem not to be able to grasp.

A simple concept that you are unable to grasp is that you swallow this story hook, line and sinker every time. The recent road map saw a cease fire proclaimed, except for Israel taking out Hamas 'leaders'. As Cleopatra asked, how many of them are there? And isn't a cease-fire a time when you don't get someone back? Both sides have now resumed their ritual of tit for tat killings.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla


Well Jon...time to wake up and smell the coffee my man. Pull your head out of the sand for one small moment and consider the fate of the helpless Leon Klinghofer....or this:



Arafat's crimes are legion. Why this creep wasn't taken out years ago is a major mystery of our time.

-z

He is no more or less a creep than Sharon, who also has blood on his hands.

An interesting article by a *gasp* Jewish writer in Israel.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...625151272.html

Quote:

It seems Ariel Sharon will do almost anything to ensure there is no Palestinian state while he is PM, writes David Grossman.

What will happen if Yasser Arafat is expelled from the arena, if he is exiled to Gaza or liquidated with a bullet, as has been proposed by senior Israeli cabinet ministers? Will the chances for peace between Israel and the Palestinians really grow then, and will terror suddenly cease? Will a Palestinian leader emerge who will be able to unite them and lead them towards peace, and into the painful concessions that peace will require?

You'd have to be a lunatic to answer in the affirmative.

True, Arafat is, without a doubt, a problematic leader, inconstant and unreliable. He brought disaster on his nation by missing, in July 2000, the opportunity to turn then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak's proposals into a momentum towards a satisfactory arrangement for the Palestinians.

Arafat, the security experts recite over and over again, is an obstacle on the road to a peace agreement. Even if our gut instincts tell us to believe them, some reservation is in order. After all, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon himself could easily be termed no less of an obstacle. But even with all the problems inherent in Arafat's character and actions, it would be a mistake, even a crime, for Israel to assassinate him. Yes, there is blood on Arafat's hands. There is also blood on Sharon's hands. Today there are very few leaders on either side that don't have blood on their hands. In the end, as everyone knows, each side will have to shake the other side's bloody hands.

[Ed]

meanwhile my question stands.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Rikzilla
Apples and oranges EJ. Israel/Palestine is a war zone, not a high crime area. That's what the intifada has made it. The Palestinians could adopt a non-violent form of civil protest instead of making war on Israel's transit authority. Every Israeli reprisal has been just that...a reprisal, a reaction to terrorist attacks on helpless civilians. A simple concept, which you seem not to be able to grasp.

Your argument makes the disreputrable assumption common to all apologists for the reprehensible treatment of innocent Palestinians by the Israeli government namely that all Palestinians are guilty and they can be treated like animals.

You see Rik, even in terrorist countries like Northern Ireland where I come from there are Catholics who are not nationalists and Protestants who are not loyalists. There are Catholics and Protestants who do not agree with assassinating people without trial by the state or by terrorists. You seem to have difficulty with that simple concept and under the regime instituted by the Israeli government it is apparently OK to kill innocent children so that suspects (note again merely suspects - not people found guilty unbder trial by jury) can be assassinated. That action goes against all norms of human behaviour for democratic governments and turns Israel into a pariah state.

You and the Israeli government seem incapable of getting beyond the discredited biblical notion of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth in the process killing many innocent children. That is an international disgrace.

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Terrorists not only target innocent civilians, they hide among them like the cowards they are. In war, combatants are "deliberately assasinated"...that's why they call it war.

Are you really saying that democratic governments should behave like the terrorists they target? If that is so on what basis should the terrorists behave any better? Israel is terrorising innocent Palestinians right now by its actions and once again your remarks seem to underpined by the disgraceful assumption that all Palestinians are guilty. That is a matter of shame.

IRA terrorists blew up members of our government yet the government did not use the disgraceful tactic of targeting innocent children to terrorise the Catholic population. They brought the perpetrators to justice through the judicial system and imprisoned those found guilty. The British government essentially behaved within the law unlike the assassination of mere suspects by the Israelis in circumstances which guaranteee innocent children will die. By targeting innocent children the Israeli government has made itself an international disgrace. By targetting children Hamas has made itself an international disgrace.

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Israelis are entitled to be be free from terror as are all innocent Palestinians. All people including Palestinians and Israelis are also entitled to respect and human dignity. Unfortunately militant terrorists who have no respect for human life have turned Israel/Palestine/West Bank/Gaza into a war zone...and then complain that Palestinians are made to live in a war zone.

Once again you seem unable to understand the concept of innocent Palestinians. Repeat after me. Not all Palestinians are terrorists. Got it now? It doesn't seem so unfortunately.

The terrorists of Hamas etc need to be condemned and stopped as do all other terrorist activity. This is not achieved by killing innocent children in Palestine or by bulldozing the houses of innocent people. nor by murdering people in Israel.

LIkewise murdering untried suspects with helicopter gunships is not the action of a decent state. Assassinating inncocent children and thereby terrorising an entire group of people is not the action of a decent state. Bulldozing houses with people in them is not the action of a decent state. Collective punishment of an entire people is not the action of a decent state. Building an apartheid country is not the action of a decent state.

All Israelis are entitled to be free from terror as are all innocent Palestinians whichever side it comes from. If you behave like a terrorist you are a terrorist. A simple lesson many in Israel and Palestine and seemingly some in the west have yet to learn.

[Solitaire]

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Originally posted by Ed
Meanwhile my question stands.
Why is that do you think?

Questions being immaterial objects can do a lot of things virtually.

The reason the Palesteinians don't invest in building factories
and other ordinary activities is that they do not have title to the
land from the governing body. (Hint: Israel) Another reason is
religion, in this case, not so much the religious fanatics inside
Palestein, but the ones outside in the larger arab world that
send in the money and munitions to fuel the, very minor, attacks.