On the Power of Prayer

[m_huber]

I was raised as a Baptist, and I have been surrounded by "prayer warriors" all of my life. Having examined recent studies of prayer, I am left to conclude that it does little good in helping anyone being prayed for. That being said, I am curious about the usefulness of prayer to the person praying. What is the value to the discipline of prayer (even if it's little more than talking to an imaginary friend)?

As a corollary to this, is there an atheist equivalent to meditation/prayer? Do any of you skeptics practice a form of meditation?

Thanks!

[Taffer]

I do, fairly often.

It usually starts by watching a particular type of movie.

[Asolepius]

I was brought up by a devoutly Christian mother. If I was worried about something, she always used to tell me to say a little prayer to God, asking for help. This always relieved the anxiety. Looking back though, I can't identify any evidence of divine intervention - the problems either solved themselves or I solved them on my own. In a wider context, there is evidence of improved mental states among people who pray, but no evidence of concrete health outcomes. This is similar to the example of the terminally ill, in whom a positive mental attitude improves quality of life but does not extend life.

Now most people these days are not religious, but neither are most people confirmed atheists. Thus I am not aware of any research in atheists regarding mental states while under stress. What I am getting at is that it may well be that having a firmly atheist attitude might be as good for one's mental state as praying - but it hasn't been tested as far as I know. I do know from a personal standpoint that being atheist helped me enormously to cope with a diagnosis of myeloma last year. There was no need to agonise over why God had done this to me!

[rex]

Originally Posted by m_huber

I am curious about the usefulness of prayer to the person praying. What is the value to the discipline of prayer (even if it's little more than talking to an imaginary friend)?

As a corollary to this, is there an atheist equivalent to meditation/prayer? Do any of you skeptics practice a form of meditation?

Thanks!

The atheist equivalent of prayer is called masturbation.

[The Grave]

The fallacy of 'prayer' is that it is meant to influence the outcome of the future: say by saving someone from a beheading by insane muslims.

This then contradicts the idea that there is 'fate' or that God knows everything e.g. the future, because a) if the future was set - prayer is useless or, b) if the future can change and so God can't know the outcome, then prayer may work to change the outcome. But that means God is not omnipotent/omniscient!

TheGrave...

[qayak]

Originally Posted by m_huber

I was raised as a Baptist, and I have been surrounded by "prayer warriors" all of my life. Having examined recent studies of prayer, I am left to conclude that it does little good in helping anyone being prayed for. That being said, I am curious about the usefulness of prayer to the person praying. What is the value to the discipline of prayer (even if it's little more than talking to an imaginary friend)?

As a corollary to this, is there an atheist equivalent to meditation/prayer? Do any of you skeptics practice a form of meditation?

Thanks!

There are many names for what you describe. The people I know call it "Thinking." Some people like to think about problems they may encounter in a quiet atmosphere with little distraction. I guess that is the benefit. One gets to think about a problem without the distractions of life interfering.

I do believe that if an atheist was sitting/standing quietly, thinking about something that was important to them, they would look a lot like a theist sitting/standing quietly, asking their god for guidance.

The difference is in where one looks for the answer. Atheists look to their mind, theists to their god.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by m_huber

Having examined recent studies of prayer, I am left to conclude that it does little good in helping anyone being prayed for.

Rather than 'little good' prayer does no good for anyone being prayed for, unless that person both shares the belief in the deity being prayed to, and is aware the prayer is being said.

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

Rather than 'little good' prayer does no good for anyone being prayed for, unless that person both shares the belief in the deity being prayed to, and is aware the prayer is being said.

Very much like a Voodoo curse.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

IMHO the person who prays, if he or she is truely a believer. feels they are "doing something" in the face of an otherwise arbitrary, capricious and random universe.

Non-believers know that there is no point and no effect.

[This Guy]

When it comes to those things not directly controllable by the person praying, I think it gives a bit of relief, as mentioned above, to believe that they have done "something" to help the situation.

For those things that the person praying can control, I believe it actually serves a similar purpose to non-theist thinking about a problem. It focuses ones attention on a problem, and makes one more likely to find a solution. Of course the whole god thing would tend to divert some of the attention, but I still think the time devoted praying does have a positive affect (effect?) on one's ability to come up with a solution.

My opinion is that this is what leads theist to proclaim that god told them what to do, or how to deal with an issue. I believe that if it were possible to play back a recording of the thought processes that took place during the prayer, it would show that the person praying solved the problem, or came up with the course of action, but has attributed this insight to god, rather than their own abilities.

[m_huber]

Originally Posted by qayak

There are many names for what you describe. The people I know call it "Thinking." Some people like to think about problems they may encounter in a quiet atmosphere with little distraction. I guess that is the benefit. One gets to think about a problem without the distractions of life interfering.

I suppose what I'm getting at is, is there a difference between thinking about something internally and talking to an imaginary friend about something?

As a person who has spent the vast majority of my life believing in prayer, I find that I now will catch myself mumbling to myself or even chatting with myself, when nobody else is around. I figure it's basically the same thing I did when I was praying, but now I'm just talking to me, and not somebody else.

I have also been berated with stories of christians who were able to solve problems, social, scientific, and otherwise, through the "power of prayer," where God somehow revealed the answer to them while they were praying. I can generally buy This Guy's answer, but I do wonder if those people would have been able to solve the same problems without having the discipline of prayer.

[TuftedPuffin]

Originally Posted by m_huber

I suppose what I'm getting at is, is there a difference between thinking about something internally and talking to an imaginary friend about something?

As a person who has spent the vast majority of my life believing in prayer, I find that I now will catch myself mumbling to myself or even chatting with myself, when nobody else is around. I figure it's basically the same thing I did when I was praying, but now I'm just talking to me, and not somebody else.

I have also been berated with stories of christians who were able to solve problems, social, scientific, and otherwise, through the "power of prayer," where God somehow revealed the answer to them while they were praying. I can generally buy This Guy's answer, but I do wonder if those people would have been able to solve the same problems without having the discipline of prayer.

It is indeed often useful to imagine that you're talking to someone, trying to convince them or whatever, in order to work out your ideas. I do it by talking to myself, and occasionally by imagining what I would say to other people. Both methods are easily available to atheists and have been used by everyone for most of human history.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by m_huber

I suppose what I'm getting at is, is there a difference between thinking about something internally and talking to an imaginary friend about something?

I think the only difference would be if you expect the imaginary friend to come up with the solution.

Quote:

As a person who has spent the vast majority of my life believing in prayer, I find that I now will catch myself mumbling to myself or even chatting with myself, when nobody else is around. I figure it's basically the same thing I did when I was praying, but now I'm just talking to me, and not somebody else.

I talk to myself all the time, internally and out loud. I find it is a simple way to wrap my mind around something and see if it "sounds" right. I don';t think it matters whether you talk to yourself or someone else about an idea or a problem, it helps shed new light on it. Like I said above, the difference would only be that in prayer you are asking someone else to do something for you. When talking to yourself you are fully aware that the problem remains until YOU decide to fix it.

Quote:

I have also been berated with stories of christians who were able to solve problems, social, scientific, and otherwise, through the "power of prayer," where God somehow revealed the answer to them while they were praying. I can generally buy This Guy's answer, but I do wonder if those people would have been able to solve the same problems without having the discipline of prayer.

I have had the experience of coming up with the answer to a very difficult problem while doing something completely unrelated that took all my concentration. I came up with the answer to a problem at work while I was in the middle of a fight in a karate tournament.

On another occasion, I was sick and had spent the day in bed. To alleviate the boredom I was working on one of those string and metal brain twisters where you have to get the string off the metal loops. It was a very difficult one and I worked at it off and on for the whole day. Being unable to get it I tossed the thing on top of the refridgerator in the afternoon. That evening I got very feverish again and when the fever finally broke, I was dehydrated so I went to the refridgerator to get a cold drink. As I stood with only the light of the refridgerator's open door, I looked on top and there was the puzzle.

And there was the answer. I took the puzzle off the refridgerator, solved it, reassembled it, got my drink and went to bed. The next morning I thought I had just had a dream about it but when I tried the puzzle I solved it immediately.

So, who knows where answers come from. I doubt god gives a hoot about some feverish atheist who is getting a drink in the middle of the night. I don't think he had much to do with the answer coming to me like that. Besides, it happens way too often for me to even see it as unusual anymore. In fact, it is a technique I use. Completely ignore the problem and the answer will come to me.