[Merged]Play-by-Play: Debate between Kevin Ryan and Michael Shermer

[Unsecured Coins]

anothr 6.5 second free fall claim

[JamesB]

Quote of the day from Ryan:

"No building has ever collapsed from fire before or after 9/11".

[Matthew Best]

Wow. Listening to American radio is annoying - it's about half and half content and ads or promo spots for other stupid-sounding radio shows. I don't know how you guys stand it.

[Brainster]

WTC-7: Probability nonsense. 6.5 seconds, own footprint. "They needed people to be in front of the TV."

[CptColumbo]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Wow. Listening to American radio is annoying - it's about half and half content and ads or promo spots for other stupid-sounding radio shows. I don't know how you guys stand it.

NPR, then you only have pledge drives once in a while.

[Unsecured Coins]

North tower did not collapse at the impact point.

[Mancman]

Ryan repeats false antenna drop on WTC1.

What a moron.

[Brainster]

"The hijackers got lucky at every single turn."

Ryan falls into the CT trap of thinking that everything that happened was supposed to happen, apparently forgetting about Flight 93.

Standdown--how about mentioning how many people would have to be in on that?

[JamesB]

There is no restricted airspace over the Pentagon! Ack, where do these people come up with this crap?

[ConspiRaider]

Okie doke, back to the show...

Shermer on collapses. Talks about hindsight, brings up Pearl Harbor conspiracies. Talks about August 6 memo, how it really is not significant. Yep, that's right on! Point being, easy to make connections AFTER the fact.

Ryan on Building 7, collapsed in 6.5 seconds, into its own footprint. Oh brother. Same old crap. No building ever collapsed due to fire. Probablility of 3 buildings all collapsing due to fire on same day. Chrissakes.

Hartmann asks, why put in explosives? Planes are enough.

Ryan bringing up DRG. False flag event, psychological event. Needed people to be in front of TV, finally gets to "rigged for demolition". He's sounding like a LOON! Ahahahaha! Bouncing all over. Apparently, had to get all Americans glued to TV, to TERRORIZE THEM with the CDs. Loon!!! Idiot!!!

Shermer says can criticize Bush Admin, why do we need 9/11 CTism?

Hartmann says Security Stood Down.

Ryan saying buildings did not collapse at impact zone. Saying buildings collapsed all over.

Shermer asks: Why are "they", who did this??? Brings up Val Plame writing book, where are the 9/11 "I Did It" books? Shermer says: NO EVIDENCE OF CD.

Ryan talks about Landmark Hotel. Says 1300 pounds of explosives could have done it.

Shermer says, where evidence?

Ryan says evidence is HOW they collapsed, dontcha SEE??? That's all that is needed, nothing else!

Shermer says Bldg 7 started collapse at debris damage point.

Ryan says 7 collapsed "perfectly", straight down. What a fool. No - it didn't!

Hartmann positing why WTCs did not go horizontal, to kill more people?

Ryan doesn't know, says nothing needs to be proven!!! What a blithering idiot! Just ask questions!!!

P56B project name, says Ryan. B.S. about most heavily defended area at Pentagon. Makes stupid claims about Pentagon, then saved by the bell.

* COMMERCIAL BREAK * more to come

[chipmunk stew]

Hartmann is favoring Ryan. Shermer is losing.

[Mancman]

I want home delivery of the New York Times.

Ryan is not good at this. He brushes off the 'why did they collapse from the impact point' question with 'it doesn't matter, they were rigged for demolition', which makes no sense.

[Par]

Direct Windows Media stream:

http://winmedia.voxcdn.net/aar?MSWMExt=.asf

[Brainster]

Hartmann claims that Osama is not on the most wanted list. Wrong! The claim is that there's no mention of 9-11 on Osama's wanted list poster.

[chipmunk stew]

Originally Posted by Mancman

Ryan is not good at this.

I disagree. I think he's infected a few brains today.

[chipmunk stew]

"...compartmentalized..."

[chipmunk stew]

"The 9/11 Commission isn't even dealing with Al-Qaeda"

...HUH?!?

[Brainster]

Poor response on the Put Options. That should be a slam dunk for anybody, cite that the Put Options on United were bought by somebody who simultaneously bought American Airlines stock.

Ryan blows it by saying that everybody should accept the CT. Big mistake, he should have closed with "need a new investigation". That sounds much more reasonable.

[ConspiRaider]

Well, final segment, apparently...

Hartmann asks Shermer why Osama not on FBI list?

Shermer handles well.

Hartmann bringing up Afghanistan pipeline, see? Woo. Hartmann is a woo, but cautious. Now asks Ryan, how FEW could have pulled off this conspiracy? Oh, this should be good. C'mon, Kev!

Ryan says "relatively" small group. Then does NOT answer! Brings up whistleblowers! Brings up Sibel Edmonds! What?!? Who cares about her? So many whistleblowers, says Krazy Kev. Bush Admin of course ignored them ALL. Right, Kev.

Hartmann, you can tell, thinks Bush did this to do the Iraq War. Sheez.

Ryan whining about "conspiracy theory" being derogatory. Poor baby. Whine on.

Ryan says evidence on hand requires us to accept "alternative" theory.

Shermer says Al Qaeda did it.

WELL!

Show's over! Lively. Hartmann conducted a good show, kept it interesting.

SHERMER WINS! Ryan was a bit less nervous as the show progressed, but he was never able to avoid sounding like a desperate man trying to land SOME kind of punch. He bounced all over, avoided answering point blank questions.

Michael Shermer prevailed. And I think we do have to thank Thom Hartmann for conducting a well-structured debate. Hartmann did well to let the two guys have at it, in a relatively calm, measured manner. Good for you, Thom!

[Mangoose]

I missed the first hour....are the guests still there?

[Brainster]

Afterthoughts:

Shermer did a very good job. Not perfect, but very good. He needs to think a little harder about his audience and tailor his responses based on that. This was not a History Channel audience, this was an Air America audience.

Ryan was miserable, repeating the usual talking points. That said, it is quite possible that some were swayed.

Dealing with the blizzard of "facts". Having had to go through this a couple times myself, I have an idea. If you're debating one of the Truthers, have a checklist in front of yourself so you can tick off the bits of woo that they're spewing at you. That way, when it's your turn you aren't trying to remember all the things they said while simultaneously debunking. That is, under the general heading of "WTC-7" you could have the following:

1. Not hit by a plane.
2. Steel-framed buildings never collapse.
3. 6.5 seconds.
4. Own footprint.
5. Limited fires.
6. Countdown.

etc. I don't think any of us would have any problem debunking any of those individual points, the key is remembering them all while you're trying to respond.

[Mangoose]

I hope there will be audio available of the debate....

[Brainster]

Hartmann engages in quite a bit of woo with the "I don't believe in the CTs" callers. Steel shipped to Korea? Nope.

[Mangoose]

Abby: "....thermate dripping out of the tower before it collapsed....Steven Jones found the thermate"

Agh, she's listing out all the taking points ....

"the videos of the collapses are the evidence....all the towers came down the exact way". No they didn't.

Hartman: And I don't disagree.

[Brainster]

LOL! Crockett Grabbe misses his chance to talk!

[ConspiRaider]

Callers:

1. Pro Ryan. Says Ryan was so good. What? Was he listening?

2. Pro Twoofer. Missing videos at Pentagon.

3. Non Twoofer: HARTMANN WON'T LET HIM TALK! OVERRIDES THE CALLER. Caller says Bush took advantage only, no pre-planning.

4. Pro Twoofer: All steel shipped off. Hartmann agrees.

5. Pro Twoofer: Molten metal, thermate, Jonesy brought up. Trying to bring up EVERYTHING in 30 seconds. Reading from script. Hartmann lets HER talk because she is woo, like him.

6. Pro Twoofer: Videos of buildings is the evidence, all that is needed. Slams Shermer. Hartmann supports.

7. Pro Twoofer: Bill Maher infiltrator, giving web site, looking for cheap exposure. Hartmann wishes her the best, approves.

8. Pro Twoofer: Ownership of WTC. Brings up insurance.

Hartmann is absolutely a 9/11 twoofer, despite his claim that he is on the fence. No - he is NOT. All of the above callers who were PRO TWOOFER, Hartmann let them talk, essentially uninterrupted. The one who got through and was a NON TWOOFER? Hartmann stepped all over him.

[BigAl]

As one who had forwarded Thomm's requests for a debate to this group, I am completely disappointed in the way he ran it. I posted a message to that effect in his chat group. He has listener call-ins in the third hour and so far they are all parroting Twoofer talking points. I think it's over and not one Truther called got on air, if they didn't leave out of disgust.

If you are so motivated, you can leave a comment via this URL.

http://www.airamerica.com/thomhartmannpage/feedback

In the past , I have asked for citations for claims made on-air and gotten fact-based answers back. I believe he will see the messages.

I posted on the chat board a statement that Shermer was able to respond to only one point after Thomm plus Ryan had spouted 10.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Wow. Listening to American radio is annoying - it's about half and half content and ads or promo spots for other stupid-sounding radio shows. I don't know how you guys stand it.

It's because they have really BAD marketing people and thus cannot sell ad time.

I tend to listen to the network I actually helped found, Head On Radio Network.

Try the Bob Kincaid show from there.

He is a decent fellow and does NOT think 9/11 was an inside job, though he does think that elements of the government ignored indications that could perhaps have prevented it. But that is incompetence, not conspiracy.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Afterthoughts:

Shermer did a very good job. Not perfect, but very good. He needs to think a little harder about his audience and tailor his responses based on that. This was not a History Channel audience, this was an Air America audience.

Just to defend the truth, I suggest we work on a response, maybe this list and put a link for a specific answer to each one. I'll cut and paste it on his blog.

[beachnut]

LTLK says they are the "the voice of reason", translates to "the source of woo". Painful stupid stuff as "truth" = "lies" for 9/11 truth, and KTLK.

Hartmann is a truther full of woo.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by BigAl

Just to defend the truth, I suggest we work on a response, maybe this list and put a link for a specific answer to each one. I'll cut and paste it on his blog.

A list of the actual points Ryan (and Hartmann) raised, or all the possible points? If it's the former, we'll presumably be able to download the MP3 soon and put together a transcript.

[Mr. Skinny]

First off, I didn't hear the callers, except for the last one.

However, If I were someone unfamiliar with this topic. I would say that Kevin Ryan came out on top. He managed to hold the microphone for the greatest amount of time throwing out speculation while Shermer sat back listening politely. When Shermer had the mic, he didn't ask for evidence and then doggedly demand that it be presented.

Frankly, I think a show like this is a poor venue for the likes of Shermer. The format is too broken up by commercials; the show is only one hour long, and it's a call in show on top of that; and Shermer is just too polite to jump in a cut off his opponent, thus allowing him to sow too many seeds of doubt while at the same time, not being asked for much in the way of evidence.

[Brainster]

If you want to see a really pathetic attempt to rebunk one of Shermer's solid arguments, check out this ridiculous post at 9-11 Blogger. George Washington (real name: Alex Floum) is something of a fathead, but this is doltish even for him. Talking about Top-Down (really Impact Point Down) versus Bottom Down:

Quote:

While this may be considered demolition from the "top" of the building, if -- instead -- we imagine that the top is comprised of a 30-story high building, the demolition would actually proceed from the bottom of that building.

[apathoid]

Originally Posted by Brainster

If you want to see a really pathetic attempt to rebunk one of Shermer's solid arguments, check out this ridiculous post at 9-11 Blogger. George Washington (real name: Alex Floum) is something of a fathead, but this is doltish even for him. Talking about Top-Down (really Impact Point Down) versus Bottom Down:

Thats the stuff Stundies are made of...

[uk_dave]

Originally Posted by Brainster

If you want to see a really pathetic attempt to rebunk one of Shermer's solid arguments, check out this ridiculous post at 9-11 Blogger. George Washington (real name: Alex Floum) is something of a fathead, but this is doltish even for him. Talking about Top-Down (really Impact Point Down) versus Bottom Down:

Quote:

While this may be considered demolition from the "top" of the building, if -- instead -- we imagine that the top is comprised of a 30-story high building, the demolition would actually proceed from the bottom of that building.

oh...oh...ohhhhhh

ohhh kaaaay

Yes, it ('trutherism') is drugs/mental illness coupled with a pathological need to lie.

[Alferd_Packer]

Well, in a sense that is similer to "crush up"

[BenBurch]

Audio here; http://server6.whiterosesociety.org/...8-11-2007).mp3

[Gravy]

I was going to send Shermer some stuff on Ryan but didn't get around to it. I haven't listened yet (thanks, Ben), but from what I read here it sounds like he didn't need it on the whole. Glad they didn't restrict the topics to collapse issues. Disappointed that Hartmann falls for nonsense that's spouted by incompetents and liars.

[Blackwell]

Quote:

While this may be considered demolition from the "top" of the building, if -- instead -- we imagine that the top is comprised of a 30-story high building, the demolition would actually proceed from the bottom of that building.

Right. And if we imagine that normal CDs are performed on buildings that are upside down, then all demolitions are top-down!
Or is it top-up?
Wow! Imagining stuff is fun!

I missed the live feed, and haven't been to the site -- is there an Air America forum? I'd be interested in knowing how the response is going there (although I can probably guess.)

[BenBurch]

Thom has a forum on his site; http://thomhartmann.com/