18 years ago (yesterday)

[Chaos]

(to my eternal shame, I missed the opportunity to say anything about this yesterday, when the actual anniversary was)

18 years ago (counting from yesterday), a political event with far-reaching consequences took place. I was twelve years old at the time. This was the first "world affairs" event that I witnessed that I was old enough to actually understand. I still remember it, as if it had happened a few days ago. I had been off, playing with some friends, and when I came home, my parents were sitting in front of the TV - unusual for that time of day -, and my mother told me, her voice filled with disbelief: "The Wall just fell".

"The Wall" is, of course, the Berlin Wall, and by association the rest of the inner-German border. An actual concrete wall that went all the way through Berlin, and a 1,300 kilometer (800 mile) monstrosity of fences, barbed wire, minefields, lookouts, and armed guards winding its way through Germany.
People who have not experienced this have a hard time understanding what this means, living in a divided country. I mean, I grew up an hour´s drive west of the border, and I myself have a hard time imagining what it was like for others, living on the other side of this border. After all, this Wall, and the rest of the border, wasn´t meant to keep a dreaded enemy at bay, despite the claims of the East German leadership - it was meant to prevent East Germany´s own citizens from escaping into the West. Countless people tried that, nonetheless, and several hundred were killed by border guards and mines trying to cross the border.

And then, it was gone.
In retrospect, maybe it was not quite surprising. Unrest had been brewing for quite a while, and during 1989, the (not quite as fortified) border between Hungary (a popular vacation country for East Germans) and Austria had been leaking like a sieve. Demonstrations were taking place with increasing frequency, like the famous Monday Protests in Leipzig.
Ironically, though, the act that, in the end, tore down the wall wasn´t actually planned to do anything like that. On the evening of the 9th of November, 1989, the East German government held a press conference in which a member of the Politburo, Günter Schabowski, read a summary of a new regulation, to the effect that restrictions on travel to West Germany were to be removed immediately (actually, only starting the next day, but Schabowski had not been told that). It was hoped by the Politburo that this would release some of the pressure that had been building up, and reduce tensions among the population.
That, needless to say, didn´t quite work out. The East German police state more or less disintegrated, and within less than a year, the German Democratic Republic ceased to exist - Germany was officially reunified on October 3rd, 1900.


And the only thing that irks me about this is that, after the people of East Germany had taken their fate into their own hands, and risked their lives protesting against their government (not to mention people elsewhere in Eastern Europe, such as the Solidarity movement in Poland), some people in the US decided to credit the result to some old fart in Washington DC who once let out some hot air near the Berlin Wall.

[Kerberos]

*cheers*

[Trakar]

Originally Posted by Chaos

(to my eternal shame, I missed the opportunity to say anything about this yesterday, when the actual anniversary was)

18 years ago (counting from yesterday), a political event with far-reaching consequences took place. I was twelve years old at the time. This was the first "world affairs" event that I witnessed that I was old enough to actually understand. I still remember it, as if it had happened a few days ago. I had been off, playing with some friends, and when I came home, my parents were sitting in front of the TV - unusual for that time of day -, and my mother told me, her voice filled with disbelief: "The Wall just fell"...

I was 14 when the wall went up. The late 50's and early 60's were scary times. Even the perceived internal threats seemed predominantly incited by foreign elements and the foreign threats were 10 feet tall and loomed large. Perhaps that is why so many of my generation are conditioned to default to threat mentalities that include submitting to perceived authority even as we voice against doing so. We still tend to see lots of the same old monsters hiding in the shadows. Perhaps in another few decades, if our nation survives that long in anything like its present structure, when your generation begins to truly grasp the reins of power, you can bring a more rational and less psychotic approach to leading the nation.

[Ryokan]

I was there, in 1989. I was 13. I still have pieces of the wall.

Exciting times.

[Lurker]

I was 23 and I saw it on TV and was captivated. Having grown up in the Cold War era, I never thought I would see the day. The Wall had always been there for me and I had thought it always would be there. At the time, I had a 22 year old's vision of time.

Now that I am a bit older I see that time marches on and very few things last. I wonder what will change over the next decade or two?

[Alt+F4]

I was 25, thinking back on it all doesn't it seem like the whole collapse of communist Europe happened so fast? I was raised with total Cold War paranoia. The communists would would invade at any minute, wouldn't let us go to church anymore and we would all have to work at a lightbulb factory.

It seemed unbelieveable that it could ever end, they were the neverending boogie man.

[Giz]

Originally Posted by Chaos

And the only thing that irks me about this is that, after the people of East Germany had taken their fate into their own hands, and risked their lives protesting against their government (not to mention people elsewhere in Eastern Europe, such as the Solidarity movement in Poland), some people in the US decided to credit the result to some old fart in Washington DC who once let out some hot air near the Berlin Wall.

Credit is due to many people in many countries but please pause to wonder what would have become of Germany if the USA had not huffed and puffed occasionally? (granted, reunification might still have happened... one way or the other).

[Pope130]

I was at Fairchild AFB going through SERE School (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape). We went to the prison camp, surrounded by walls, barbed wire and unpleasant guards with German accents for three days. When we came out the TV was running live images of the Wall being torn down. Pretty dramatic.

I was locked up for three days. I can only imagine what it must have been like to see that wall coming down after being locked up for twenty-eight years.

Robert Klaus

[Boo]

I watched mesmerized on the television. The next day I went in to work and I asked one of the patients if he had heard the news. This gentleman had lost his sight as a young man and one of the major events prior to losing his sight was the wall going up. He asked me to describe what I had seen the night before, as I did he sat there with tears running down his face. When I had finished he thanked me for giving him images to replace the ones he had from seeing the wall go up.



I still get the chills when I see images of that night.




Boo

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

(to my eternal shame, I missed the opportunity to say anything about this yesterday, when the actual anniversary was)

18 years ago (counting from yesterday), a political event with far-reaching consequences took place. I was twelve years old at the time. This was the first "world affairs" event that I witnessed that I was old enough to actually understand. I still remember it, as if it had happened a few days ago. I had been off, playing with some friends, and when I came home, my parents were sitting in front of the TV - unusual for that time of day -, and my mother told me, her voice filled with disbelief: "The Wall just fell".

Ich bleibt im West Berlin drei jahre. (I think I got the German right on that, sorry if I didn't.)

So, as a boy, I lived in the divided city for three years, and had a very vivid picture of what made us from them different as I grew up.

I was amazed, and overjoyed, when the wall came down.

My brother still has a small piece of the wall, taken from it in 1970, from the West side. (British sector, so his piece was from well north of Checkpoint Charlie.)

It took a combination of people doing a great deal to apply pressure for change. In time, change came. Why you worry about credit is your own affair.

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Ich bleibt im West Berlin drei jahre. (I think I got the German right on that, sorry if I didn't.)

You didn´t - not quite. At least if you tried to tell me you´ve lived in West Berlin for three years.

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So, as a boy, I lived in the divided city for three years, and had a very vivid picture of what made us from them different as I grew up.

Who exactly is the "us" and "them" here?

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I was amazed, and overjoyed, when the wall came down.

My brother still has a small piece of the wall, taken from it in 1970, from the West side. (British sector, so his piece was from well north of Checkpoint Charlie.)

It took a combination of people doing a great deal to apply pressure for change. In time, change came. Why you worry about credit is your own affair.

DR

Well, for one thing, praise where praise is due.
For another, there are very tight limits on what one guy producing lots of hot air can do, no matter how big a stick he can wave. There are things you just cannot do unless "the people" that are affected want it. These are lessons that, I think, are very important today.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

You didn´t - not quite. At least if you tried to tell me you´ve lived in West Berlin for three years.

Sorry, my grammar and usage auf Deutsch died some years ago. Lack of use.

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Who exactly is the "us" and "them" here?

The Sovs = them, the West = us. I grew up in the Cold War, and was in it. It wasn't a fantasy, it was a real thing, although it was a curious beast for certain.

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Sorry, my grammar and usage auf Deutsch died some years ago. Lack of use.

Requiescat in pacem.

Quote:

The Sovs = them, the West = us. I grew up in the Cold War, and was in it. It wasn't a fantasy, it was a real thing, although it was a curious beast for certain.

DR

Dividing the world in one "us" and one "them" (especially the latter) is the road to... very unpleasant things - some of which my country has experienced (even perpetrated) in the past.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Chaos

Requiescat in pacem.

Dividing the world in one "us" and one "them" (especially the latter) is the road to... very unpleasant things - some of which my country has experienced (even perpetrated) in the past.

Jesusmariaundjosef, that was 18 years ago? I remember it as if it was
just 10 years or so ago. There was fireworks in Trier and I didn't know what
this is about until my parents called and told me what's going on...

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

Dividing the world in one "us" and one "them"

It's an old human habit, or hadn't you noticed how you do it?

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

It's an old human habit,

...and skeptic in particular ought to at least *try* to rise above this.

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or hadn't you noticed how you do it?

DR

It was not me who has effectively put himself in the same category as Tim McVeigh and Charles Manson - and Alexander Solshenizyn (sp?) in the same category as Joseph Stalin.

[quixotecoyote]

Chaos









------------------------ <- The top

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Chaos









------------------------ <- The top

Inhowfar?

DR has - not for the first time - probed the depths of ignorance and bigotry that he is capable of. I would have thought that a factually correct statement pointing this out cannot be worse than the nonsense DR has written.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

...and skeptic in particular ought to at least *try* to rise above this.

Since you don't, why this appeal to kilt wearing skeptics?

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It was not me who has effectively put himself in the same category as Tim McVeigh and Charles Manson - and Alexander Solshenizyn (sp?) in the same category as Joseph Stalin.

I see. You can distill the American position down to a moral equivalence of Charles Manson and Tim McVeigh, and Stalin to Solshenizyn (who Americans tended to support) and you wonder at how I note your talent for a "we versus them" attitude screams at me off the page.

Too funny, and I am trying to figure out where bigotry comes into this? The Cold War was a very real political conflict, between two major power blocs, one led by my country, one by the Soviets. Are you trying to deny that with your idiotic examples of a Soviet and an American?

The power of the Soviet Union wasn't applied by Solshenizyn, he was a critic and dissident.

The power of the US wasn't applied by McVeigh, nor by Manson.

When you can make an analogy that fits the Cold War as it was, instead of some curious non sequitur, please do.

Until then, chuss.

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Since you don't, why this appeal to kilt wearing skeptics?

If you are trying to make a point, please do so more clearly.

Quote:

I see. You can distill the American position down to a moral equivalence of Charles Manson and Tim McVeigh, and Stalin to Solshenizyn (who Americans tended to support) and you wonder at how I note your talent for a "we versus them" attitude screams at me off the page.

You, not I, stated that you, not I, believed (way back then) that there were exactly two categories - "us" in the US and "them" in the Soviet Union.

Since you, not I, neglected to subdivide these categories any further, you, not I, have left me no choice but to assume that you consider Charles Manson and Tim Veigh, both of whom are/were US citizens, to be in the same category as yourself.
Likewise, as you allow for only one category of Soviet, you have left me no choice but to assume that you consider Stalin and Solchenizyn, both of whom were Soviet citizens, to be in the same category.

If that is not what you are trying to convey, it would help if you said so, and clearly, instead of blaming me for the deficient nature of your own statement.

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Too funny, and I am trying to figure out where bigotry comes into this? The Cold War was a very real political conflict, between two major power blocs, one led by my country, one by the Soviets. Are you trying to deny that with your idiotic examples of a Soviet and an American?

The bigotry comes into play with the old "us = good guys" and "them = bad guys", typically maintained without exception. An exception which, I might not, you did not make.

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The power of the Soviet Union wasn't applied by Solshenizyn, he was a critic and dissident.

The power of the US wasn't applied by McVeigh, nor by Manson.

Ah, so now there two categories each, those who have power and those who don´t.

You know, you could have said so right from the start, instead of posting that inane "US vs THEM" crap.

I suspect that, in a perfect world, I should have assumed that you did so implicitly. Unfortunately, too many people here, yourself included, all too often implicitly and explicitly do not make this distinction - so, sadly, the assumption "he didn´t say so, so he probably didn´t mean to say so" is usually correct.

Quote:

When you can make an analogy that fits the Cold War as it was, instead of some curious non sequitur, please do.

Until then, chuss.

DR

I would appreciate if you, good sir, approached the Cold War with something more sophisticated than statements that would befit one Mr. McCarthy far more than they would a skeptic.

Until then, auf Wiedersehen.

[Lurker]

Holy frick, Chaos. By your strict defn of hte usage of the terms, I expect you will NEVER use the word "us" or the word "them" in the future. Every group can be subdivided. Get a grip.

As a liberal, I can't refer to Conservatives as "them" since they can be subdivided into different beliefs within that group, right?

I think everyone knows groups are comprised of a variety of people, some of whom do not share the same principles. I don't really see the sense in your jumping all over DR for this. He was speaking generally - are we no longer allowed to do this?

Lurker

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

If you are trying to make a point, please do so more clearly.You, not I, stated that you, not I, believed (way back then) that there were exactly two categories - "us" in the US and "them" in the Soviet Union.

No, that is not quite correct. The US and Them was stated by me thusly:

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The Sovs = them, the West = us.

That means you Germans, in the FDR, were on our side, as The West was a whole bunch of us folks who weren't for that Stalinist thing. Or don't you remember? Why don't you try reading what is written?

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Since you, not I, neglected to subdivide these categories any further, you, not I, have left me no choice but to assume that you consider Charles Manson and Tim Veigh, both of whom are/were US citizens, to be in the same category as yourself.

Left you no choice but to attempt to construct a moral equivalence between criminals and a nation state? No, Chaos, you chose that idiocy. I left you a great many more options than to post garbage like that.

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Likewise, as you allow for only one category of Soviet, you have left me no choice but to assume that you consider Stalin and Solchenizyn, both of whom were Soviet citizens, to be in the same category.

You read a great deal into what I wrote, and made some stuff up. The Soviets were the political entity who were in opposition to The West in the Cold war. Go read a history book, and see if you can figure out what was going on for about 40 years. I hear it had an influence on your country, Germany.

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If that is not what you are trying to convey, it would help if you said so, and clearly, instead of blaming me for the deficient nature of your own statement.

Your choice to invent a great deal is your own fault. Strawmen all.

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The bigotry comes into play with the old "us = good guys" and "them = bad guys", typically maintained without exception. An exception which, I might not, you did not make.

That's a curious definition for "bigotry." Group identity does not always imply bigotry. People align in groups all the time. It's a habit people have. (Gee, have we been here before?) See also sports teams, and their fans.

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Ah, so now there two categories each, those who have power and those who don´t.

You seem obsessed with dialectics. Wait, you are German, why am I not surprised? Hegel was German. I get it.

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You know, you could have said so right from the start, instead of posting that inane "US vs THEM" crap.

Why do you wish to ignore that the Cold War was very much an Us versus Them situation, politically? Why do you take that view? Or is this just you playing some silly game? I played quite a bit of tag in the Med and the Black Sea, and later in the Pacific, as us watching them watching us. Quite the sport, it was. Vlad seems to want to restart the game at some yet to be determined save point. Good for him, old Vlad the sportsman.

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I would appreciate if you, good sir, approached the Cold War with something more sophisticated than statements that would befit one Mr. McCarthy far more than they would a skeptic.

Right. So if the West and the Soviets were not the two sides who started, and ended, the Cold War, who the hell was?

Your McCarthy crap you can park on Einbahnstrasse.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Lurker

I think everyone knows groups are comprised of a variety of people, some of whom do not share the same principles. I don't really see the sense in your jumping all over DR for this. He was speaking generally - are we no longer allowed to do this?

Lurker

We can do what we like, and sometimes we come off cleverer than others. Not Chaos' best work, but he's had some good stuff too, so it's a wash. We take the bitter with the sweet, us posters here at JREF, not like them others elsewhere.

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Holy frick, Chaos. By your strict defn of hte usage of the terms, I expect you will NEVER use the word "us" or the word "them" in the future. Every group can be subdivided. Get a grip.

Uh... no. DR had explicitly defined what he meant by "us" and "them". And he explicitly did NOT subdivide the groups.

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As a liberal, I can't refer to Conservatives as "them" since they can be subdivided into different beliefs within that group, right?

Tell that to those nice folks who keep saying "the Liberals do this", "Liberals do that", "Liberals are traitors" and so on.

Quote:

I think everyone knows groups are comprised of a variety of people, some of whom do not share the same principles. I don't really see the sense in your jumping all over DR for this. He was speaking generally - are we no longer allowed to do this?

Lurker

Everyone knows this? Then a number of people who post here, or have posted here, are very skilled at hiding their knowledge.

And DR was NOT speaking generally - he had defined exactly which groups existed for him, way back them.

[Weltregierung]

I wish I had been a little older, when the Berlin wall fell. I was only 6 and was not really able to grasp what just had happened.

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Weltregierung

I wish I had been a little older, when the Berlin wall fell. I was only 6 and was not really able to grasp what just had happened.

I wish *I* had been older. 12 wasn´t really old enough to understand everything that happened. That was one of those events that happen only once a lifetime, at most.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

And DR was NOT speaking generally - he had defined exactly which groups existed for him, way back them.

I don't get how you can claim that wasn't a general observation at the macro level, but you are free to try and spin it as you like. Lurker has the right of it.

The simplest difference between " us " and "them" was that "them" built walls and fences, backed up by minefields and weapons, to keep their people in. They locked the people in. They turned part of your homeland into a minimum security prison.

We didn't.

I would hope you can grasp the difference. I suspect you do. Even as a boy of eleven, I got it.

DR

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I don't get how you can claim that wasn't a general observation at the macro level, but you are free to try and spin it as you like. Lurker has the right of it.

The simplest difference between " us " and "them" was that "them" built walls and fences, backed up by minefields and weapons, to keep their people in. They locked the people in. They turned part of your homeland into a minimum security prison.

There we are again.

Which "them" did that? Mr Solchenizyn´s "them"? The "them" of my relatives in Thuringen? The "them" of the people who where slaughtered during the uprisings in the 50´s and 60´s?

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We didn't.

But which "we" was Manson´s gang part of, for example? Which "we" was the scum part of that massacred My Lai, for example?

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I would hope you can grasp the difference. I suspect you do. Even as a boy of eleven, I got it.

DR

I can grasp that difference. But can *you* grasp that this difference means your "us" and "them" is crap?
Macro level, my ass. There is no macro level - only a whole bunch of micro-levels. One per person, to be exact.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Chaos

There we are again.

Which "them" did that? Mr Solchenizyn´s "them"? The "them" of my relatives in Thuringen? The "them" of the people who where slaughtered during the uprisings in the 50´s and 60´s?

Them is quite simply those who ran the Soviet Union. IIRC, about 6% of the Soviets were members of the Communist Party, but that is who "them" is, since that "them" was able to put such policies into place. Likewise for those who were the Soviet clients in East Germany. It would be fairly obvious, from the joy that the wall coming down evoked, that the them were a significant minority. That didn't prevent them from locking their people in.

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But which "we" was Manson´s gang part of, for example? Which "we" was the scum part of that massacred My Lai, for example?

Red herring. Go fish.

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I can grasp that difference. But can *you* grasp that this difference means your "us" and "them" is crap? acro level, my ass. There is no macro level - only a whole bunch of micro-levels. One per person, to be exact.

Nope. Until you grasp how impractical that attitude is, I think you'll have some trouble grasping geopolitics. Group identity is not trivial. See again team sports.

I don't know why you keep fishing for red herring here Chaos, because I think we both shared a considerable uplifting experience when the Wall came down. Given your family situation, your emotions were likely more powerfully influenced than mine.

I was pleasantly surprised, since I did not believe, until it actually happened, that I would see it come down in my lifetime. Germany being one of my favorite places, thanks to having lived there, made the wall coming down emotionally special to me.

I was pleased as hell to be wrong in my prediction.

DR

[The Painter]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

I was there, in 1989. I was 13. I still have pieces of the wall.

Exciting times.

I also have a piece of the wall. It's one of my treasured possessions.

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Them is quite simply those who ran the Soviet Union. IIRC, about 6% of the Soviets were members of the Communist Party, but that is who "them" is, since that "them" was able to put such policies into place.

Fine. Except that in the Soviet Union, like in many such repressive regimes, one had to be a party member to rise above a relatively low career level, or at without membership that was exceptionally hard. A good percentage of those members may well have taken the path of least resistance and paid lip service to the party.
Plus, it is quite doubtful that the rank and file of party members actually had any influence on what happened. I mean, it´s not like they had actual elections or primaries or something, right?

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Likewise for those who were the Soviet clients in East Germany. It would be fairly obvious, from the joy that the wall coming down evoked, that the them were a significant minority. That didn't prevent them from locking their people in.

Red herring. Go fish.

Nope. Until you grasp how impractical that attitude is, I think you'll have some trouble grasping geopolitics. Group identity is not trivial. See again team sports.

Well, there´s the government. There´s the people who actually like that government. There´s the people who don´t care. There´s the people who don´t like it, but are too afraid to do anything. There´s the people who have done something and suffered the consequences. There´s the people who don´t like the government, but don´t like your side, either. And within each such categories, there are countless degrees and subcategories, overlappin groups, and whatnot.
Life is complicated.

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I don't know why you keep fishing for red herring here Chaos, because I think we both shared a considerable uplifting experience when the Wall came down. Given your family situation, your emotions were likely more powerfully influenced than mine.

Well, the situation *did* work wonders in making people see more than black and white. Even the dumbest kraut (including yours truly as a kid in the 80´s) realized that there had to be at least two kinds of "them" - our poor oppressed countrymen in the East, and those who did the oppressing (including some not-so-poor, not-so-oppressed countrymen of ours).

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I was pleasantly surprised, since I did not believe, until it actually happened, that I would see it come down in my lifetime. Germany being one of my favorite places, thanks to having lived there, made the wall coming down emotionally special to me.

I was pleased as hell to be wrong in my prediction.

DR

Apparently we agree on something. Maybe this means that *our* Cold War is not going to last forever, either?