For Ruby and Roadtoad: the theological and the experiential

Mike D. · 12th September 2003, 05:53 PM

Ruby and Roadtoad,

I've gotten the impression from reading some of your recent posts that you both came to JREF as devout Christians to some degree and have gradually undergone a journey in a direction toward the agnostic/atheist end of the spectrum, perhaps helped along by exposure to some of the ideas voiced on this forum. Unfortunately, I haven't read enough posts to have a clear sense of exactly what your beliefs were when you joined JREFand the details of the process by which you changed. But I was thinking about this today, and got curious about something.

In the case of either of you, were the churches you were involved in pentecostal/charismatic, with intense emphasis on the experiential, and with the purely theological aspects downplayed to some degree? Or were your churches more oriented toward an emphasis on belief in correct theology and perhaps a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but without the "signs and wonders" that are emphasized in pentecostal/charismatic worship? I'm wondering whether or not there would tend to be a difference in how easily someone loses his or her faith in Christianity, based on which type of demonination he or she was involved in. Let's say someone came to the JREF forum who on a weekly basis believed he or she experienced or saw such things as the baptism of the Holy Ghost, being "slain in the Spirit," speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, miracles of healing, feeling the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through his or her body like a tangible electrical force, etc. Would that person be as likely to move toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum while participating on JREF, as would a member of a church who believes that he or she has correct theological beliefs and has a relationship with Christ that this warms his or her heart, but has not felt that he or she has experienced any of the more dramatic experiential claims that the pentecostals/charismatics would say are part of Christianity?

In addition to Ruby and Roadtoad, I'd of course be interested in hearing others' thoughts about this, or any experiences that anyone would like to share.

Mike

arcticpenguin · 12th September 2003, 05:58 PM

I think the "gradually" part is not accurate.

Look around a bit and you'll find at least one thread with Ruby about 'speaking in tongues'.

I've noticed there are a lot of ex-Catholic agnostics & atheists. I'm not sure if htis is just because the Catholic church is so big, or because they don't have the rabid anti-intellectual stance of the Fundies.

Roadtoad · 29th September 2003, 07:20 PM

Sorry I was so late in getting back to you on this, Mike. For the past few weeks, I've been fighting with the boss, particularly about hours of service, and how they're to be logged and the like. (This is a very long story in and of itself. Not particularly fit for this forum at this time. Maybe in a few days...)

Let me try and explain it this way: I started out getting a strong dose of what was considered "correct" theology from the outset. Part of this was that I'd made so many mistakes in my life prior to my conversion (or return, if you prefer), I wasn't about to place myself in "harm's way" again. At the time, the big fear was about the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and his cultists running about the country. I also had several relatives who were deeply into the Mormon Church, and had a girlfriend at one point who was in the Jehovah's Witnesses. You might say I had incentive to get it right.

The problem, though, is that I kept running into the cliquishness of the Church, and kept finding myself battling on one side or another, either as one of the "Ins" or one of the "Outs" against it. Scripturally, it's wrong.

Had I been part of a Charismatic Church? Several. I even spoke out against the (ab)use of "Speaking in Tongues." You cannot justify what we're seeing in Charismatic Churches today under what was described in the Bible.

So what turned it over for me? Partly the JREF. Part of it, though, was that I was finally convinced by the actions of people who claimed they believed in God. When it all comes down to it, the only proof we have of God's existence is changed lives, and acts of compassion. That is absent in most churches today, and statistically, you can fake the rest.

Does this help? Do you need more?

Mike D. · 29th September 2003, 08:09 PM

Roadtoad,

Sounds like you had a mixture of both an emphasis on correct theology *and* experiences with charismatic/pentecostal worship. Thanks for filling me in. I started the thread because a question arose in my mind about Christians who move away from their faith due, at least in part, to exposure to ideas here at JREF. I wondered if it would make any difference if the churches they were involved with emphasized the experiential or charismatic aspects of Christianity or if those churches did not have such an emphasis.

Thanks again for sharing!

Mike

Roadtoad · 29th September 2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike D.
Roadtoad,

Sounds like you had a mixture of both an emphasis on correct theology *and* experiences with charismatic/pentecostal worship. Thanks for filling me in. I started the thread because a question arose in my mind about Christians who move away from their faith due, at least in part, to exposure to ideas here at JREF. I wondered if it would make any difference if the churches they were involved with emphasized the experiential or charismatic aspects of Christianity or if those churches did not have such an emphasis.

Thanks again for sharing!

Mike

I would say, Mike, much of what I encountered here on JREF was actually confirming what I was coming to believe myself.

Thankfully, I got a lot of encouragement from folks like Rikzilla, Yahweh, Yahzi, Kittynh, and a whole host of others. Rather than attack my beliefs, or me, for that matter, they asked questions, encouraged discussion, and helped me press onward. I didn't expect that. It helped.

ehbowen · 30th September 2003, 02:09 AM

Hello, Mike. Thought I'd go ahead and jump in here. I've been through several stages in my life. I began as a Christian in a Baptist church at the age of seven. At about age ten or so I was caught up in what we now call the "New Age" movement for a couple of years. Not one of the "psychic" or "thought experiments" I tried ever showed the slightest positive result, but that never dissuaded me; what finally caused me to drop it was a very pointed message I heard one night that explained how the occult was not compatible with Christianity.

Since that time I have been a committed fundamentalist, although in my teen years the level of commitment may have wavered a bit. As a freshman in college, however, I unreservedly committed myself to seeking and carrying out God's highest and best desired will for my life, regardless of the consequences, and in the ensuing twenty-plus years I think I can safely say that I have remained true to that commitment.

My background, as I mentioned above, is fundamentalist Southern Baptist. So I tilt very much toward the theological emphasis you mentioned. Aside from brief visits in other churches, I have never been involved with the speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit and similar charismatic kind of movements. The experiences I have had have been more personal and have largely centered around answered prayers. I have had a few prayers answered exactly as I wished. In most cases, though, I may not have immediately received what I asked for--but looking back, I have seen in hindsight that what I actually received was better than what I originally asked for.

I have not been very active in the JREF forum, but I have been reading Mr. Randi's commentaries for about two and a half years now. I don't criticize Mr. Randi for believing as he does, although I disagree with him; I can understand how based on his initial assumptions and his experiences he has come to his current beliefs. Where I would part company with him, though, is his "laboratory" mentality: He seems to believe that, in order to be valid, the supernatural must be able to be repeated and verified "on cue." In my experience this is not the case; the miracles I have witnessed were one-time events and I know better than to even attempt to reprise them for an audience. You can't put God in a box; any attempt to coerce him into performing on cue is futile. Approach him as a person, however, and eventually--in my experience, about twenty years or so--eventually you just may get the glimpse of him you seek.

And so I suppose that I do not fall into that group you mentioned of those who have "moved" toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum; I am as secure and confident in my convictions as I have ever been if not more so. This is not to say that I have never questioned my beliefs; on the contrary, I have examined and questioned them many times. However, I have found personally satisfactory answers to such a plurality of those questions that I trust that, in time, the rest will be satisfactorily answered as well. One thing I believe is that God is not afraid of honest questions. You might try this site for the insights of someone else who feels the same way I do--and who writes it all down!

Enough for now. Perhaps we can chat again later.

Mike D. · 30th September 2003, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ehbowen
Hello, Mike. Thought I'd go ahead and jump in here. I've been through several stages in my life. I began as a Christian in a Baptist church at the age of seven. At about age ten or so I was caught up in what we now call the "New Age" movement for a couple of years. Not one of the "psychic" or "thought experiments" I tried ever showed the slightest positive result, but that never dissuaded me; what finally caused me to drop it was a very pointed message I heard one night that explained how the occult was not compatible with Christianity.

Since that time I have been a committed fundamentalist, although in my teen years the level of commitment may have wavered a bit. As a freshman in college, however, I unreservedly committed myself to seeking and carrying out God's highest and best desired will for my life, regardless of the consequences, and in the ensuing twenty-plus years I think I can safely say that I have remained true to that commitment.

My background, as I mentioned above, is fundamentalist Southern Baptist. So I tilt very much toward the theological emphasis you mentioned. Aside from brief visits in other churches, I have never been involved with the speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit and similar charismatic kind of movements. The experiences I have had have been more personal and have largely centered around answered prayers. I have had a few prayers answered exactly as I wished. In most cases, though, I may not have immediately received what I asked for--but looking back, I have seen in hindsight that what I actually received was better than what I originally asked for.

I have not been very active in the JREF forum, but I have been reading Mr. Randi's commentaries for about two and a half years now. I don't criticize Mr. Randi for believing as he does, although I disagree with him; I can understand how based on his initial assumptions and his experiences he has come to his current beliefs. Where I would part company with him, though, is his "laboratory" mentality: He seems to believe that, in order to be valid, the supernatural must be able to be repeated and verified "on cue." In my experience this is not the case; the miracles I have witnessed were one-time events and I know better than to even attempt to reprise them for an audience. You can't put God in a box; any attempt to coerce him into performing on cue is futile. Approach him as a person, however, and eventually--in my experience, about twenty years or so--eventually you just may get the glimpse of him you seek.

And so I suppose that I do not fall into that group you mentioned of those who have "moved" toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum; I am as secure and confident in my convictions as I have ever been if not more so. This is not to say that I have never questioned my beliefs; on the contrary, I have examined and questioned them many times. However, I have found personally satisfactory answers to such a plurality of those questions that I trust that, in time, the rest will be satisfactorily answered as well. One thing I believe is that God is not afraid of honest questions. You might try this site for the insights of someone else who feels the same way I do--and who writes it all down!

Enough for now. Perhaps we can chat again later.

Eric,

You mentioned that you one night heard a pointed messge that the occult (which I assume for you would include all things psychic and New Age) is not compatible with Christianity. Would you say that these things are actively inspired in detail by Satan? I know that some fundamentalist Christians, for example, believe that when "spirits" in seances give what sitters believe are evidential messages, that these so-called spirits are in reality Satanic demons who, through their supernatural knowledge, more or less realistically simulate a deceased loved one in order to lead the sitters at the seance down the path of Spiritualism--a Satan-inspired path that God condemns.

When you've had prayers answered in the course of your Christian life, have the answers ever been startlingly specific, almost to the point of seeming to you to strain such mundane explanations as coincidence, etc.?

It seems that the "laboratory mentality" that you mention is a common one here at JREF. Many here seem to take the approach that a phenomenon does not exist if not confirmed on demand using double blind protocols with independent replication on demand, and with results published in peer reviewed journals. Underlying this, it seems to me, is a faith that the universe is composed of matter and that that matter expresses and obeys unvarying laws that operate consistently and without exception at all times anywhere in the universe.

Thanks for sharing the Christian apologetics site. There's a lot of material there. It seems like those writing on the site are trying to use intellect in defense of a conservative Christian theology. I remember Lord Kenneth once remarking something to the effect that intellect and Christian apologetics are incompatible. I wonder how he would view the material on this site.

Mike

12th September 2003, 05:53 PM	#1
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321	For Ruby and Roadtoad: the theological and the experiential Ruby and Roadtoad, I've gotten the impression from reading some of your recent posts that you both came to JREF as devout Christians to some degree and have gradually undergone a journey in a direction toward the agnostic/atheist end of the spectrum, perhaps helped along by exposure to some of the ideas voiced on this forum. Unfortunately, I haven't read enough posts to have a clear sense of exactly what your beliefs were when you joined JREFand the details of the process by which you changed. But I was thinking about this today, and got curious about something. In the case of either of you, were the churches you were involved in pentecostal/charismatic, with intense emphasis on the experiential, and with the purely theological aspects downplayed to some degree? Or were your churches more oriented toward an emphasis on belief in correct theology and perhaps a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but without the "signs and wonders" that are emphasized in pentecostal/charismatic worship? I'm wondering whether or not there would tend to be a difference in how easily someone loses his or her faith in Christianity, based on which type of demonination he or she was involved in. Let's say someone came to the JREF forum who on a weekly basis believed he or she experienced or saw such things as the baptism of the Holy Ghost, being "slain in the Spirit," speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, miracles of healing, feeling the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through his or her body like a tangible electrical force, etc. Would that person be as likely to move toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum while participating on JREF, as would a member of a church who believes that he or she has correct theological beliefs and has a relationship with Christ that this warms his or her heart, but has not felt that he or she has experienced any of the more dramatic experiential claims that the pentecostals/charismatics would say are part of Christianity? In addition to Ruby and Roadtoad, I'd of course be interested in hearing others' thoughts about this, or any experiences that anyone would like to share. Mike
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321

12th September 2003, 05:58 PM	#2
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	I think the "gradually" part is not accurate. Look around a bit and you'll find at least one thread with Ruby about 'speaking in tongues'. I've noticed there are a lot of ex-Catholic agnostics & atheists. I'm not sure if htis is just because the Catholic church is so big, or because they don't have the rabid anti-intellectual stance of the Fundies.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

29th September 2003, 08:09 PM	#4
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321	Roadtoad, Sounds like you had a mixture of both an emphasis on correct theology and experiences with charismatic/pentecostal worship. Thanks for filling me in. I started the thread because a question arose in my mind about Christians who move away from their faith due, at least in part, to exposure to ideas here at JREF. I wondered if it would make any difference if the churches they were involved with emphasized the experiential or charismatic aspects of Christianity or if those churches did not have such an emphasis. Thanks again for sharing! Mike
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321

30th September 2003, 02:09 AM	#6
ehbowen Plumb loco...motive! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 237	Hello, Mike. Thought I'd go ahead and jump in here. I've been through several stages in my life. I began as a Christian in a Baptist church at the age of seven. At about age ten or so I was caught up in what we now call the "New Age" movement for a couple of years. Not one of the "psychic" or "thought experiments" I tried ever showed the slightest positive result, but that never dissuaded me; what finally caused me to drop it was a very pointed message I heard one night that explained how the occult was not compatible with Christianity. Since that time I have been a committed fundamentalist, although in my teen years the level of commitment may have wavered a bit. As a freshman in college, however, I unreservedly committed myself to seeking and carrying out God's highest and best desired will for my life, regardless of the consequences, and in the ensuing twenty-plus years I think I can safely say that I have remained true to that commitment. My background, as I mentioned above, is fundamentalist Southern Baptist. So I tilt very much toward the theological emphasis you mentioned. Aside from brief visits in other churches, I have never been involved with the speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit and similar charismatic kind of movements. The experiences I have had have been more personal and have largely centered around answered prayers. I have had a few prayers answered exactly as I wished. In most cases, though, I may not have immediately received what I asked for--but looking back, I have seen in hindsight that what I actually received was better than what I originally asked for. I have not been very active in the JREF forum, but I have been reading Mr. Randi's commentaries for about two and a half years now. I don't criticize Mr. Randi for believing as he does, although I disagree with him; I can understand how based on his initial assumptions and his experiences he has come to his current beliefs. Where I would part company with him, though, is his "laboratory" mentality: He seems to believe that, in order to be valid, the supernatural must be able to be repeated and verified "on cue." In my experience this is not the case; the miracles I have witnessed were one-time events and I know better than to even attempt to reprise them for an audience. You can't put God in a box; any attempt to coerce him into performing on cue is futile. Approach him as a person, however, and eventually--in my experience, about twenty years or so--eventually you just may get the glimpse of him you seek. And so I suppose that I do not fall into that group you mentioned of those who have "moved" toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum; I am as secure and confident in my convictions as I have ever been if not more so. This is not to say that I have never questioned my beliefs; on the contrary, I have examined and questioned them many times. However, I have found personally satisfactory answers to such a plurality of those questions that I trust that, in time, the rest will be satisfactorily answered as well. One thing I believe is that God is not afraid of honest questions. You might try this site for the insights of someone else who feels the same way I do--and who writes it all down! Enough for now. Perhaps we can chat again later.
	__________________ --------Eric H. Bowen Aoccdrnig to rsceearh at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are; the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a tatol mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. **** is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Raelly amzanig, huh?

30th September 2003, 08:22 PM	#7
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321	Quote: Originally posted by ehbowen Hello, Mike. Thought I'd go ahead and jump in here. I've been through several stages in my life. I began as a Christian in a Baptist church at the age of seven. At about age ten or so I was caught up in what we now call the "New Age" movement for a couple of years. Not one of the "psychic" or "thought experiments" I tried ever showed the slightest positive result, but that never dissuaded me; what finally caused me to drop it was a very pointed message I heard one night that explained how the occult was not compatible with Christianity. Since that time I have been a committed fundamentalist, although in my teen years the level of commitment may have wavered a bit. As a freshman in college, however, I unreservedly committed myself to seeking and carrying out God's highest and best desired will for my life, regardless of the consequences, and in the ensuing twenty-plus years I think I can safely say that I have remained true to that commitment. My background, as I mentioned above, is fundamentalist Southern Baptist. So I tilt very much toward the theological emphasis you mentioned. Aside from brief visits in other churches, I have never been involved with the speaking in tongues/slain in the spirit and similar charismatic kind of movements. The experiences I have had have been more personal and have largely centered around answered prayers. I have had a few prayers answered exactly as I wished. In most cases, though, I may not have immediately received what I asked for--but looking back, I have seen in hindsight that what I actually received was better than what I originally asked for. I have not been very active in the JREF forum, but I have been reading Mr. Randi's commentaries for about two and a half years now. I don't criticize Mr. Randi for believing as he does, although I disagree with him; I can understand how based on his initial assumptions and his experiences he has come to his current beliefs. Where I would part company with him, though, is his "laboratory" mentality: He seems to believe that, in order to be valid, the supernatural must be able to be repeated and verified "on cue." In my experience this is not the case; the miracles I have witnessed were one-time events and I know better than to even attempt to reprise them for an audience. You can't put God in a box; any attempt to coerce him into performing on cue is futile. Approach him as a person, however, and eventually--in my experience, about twenty years or so--eventually you just may get the glimpse of him you seek. And so I suppose that I do not fall into that group you mentioned of those who have "moved" toward the atheist/agnostic end of the spectrum; I am as secure and confident in my convictions as I have ever been if not more so. This is not to say that I have never questioned my beliefs; on the contrary, I have examined and questioned them many times. However, I have found personally satisfactory answers to such a plurality of those questions that I trust that, in time, the rest will be satisfactorily answered as well. One thing I believe is that God is not afraid of honest questions. You might try this site for the insights of someone else who feels the same way I do--and who writes it all down! Enough for now. Perhaps we can chat again later. Eric, You mentioned that you one night heard a pointed messge that the occult (which I assume for you would include all things psychic and New Age) is not compatible with Christianity. Would you say that these things are actively inspired in detail by Satan? I know that some fundamentalist Christians, for example, believe that when "spirits" in seances give what sitters believe are evidential messages, that these so-called spirits are in reality Satanic demons who, through their supernatural knowledge, more or less realistically simulate a deceased loved one in order to lead the sitters at the seance down the path of Spiritualism--a Satan-inspired path that God condemns. When you've had prayers answered in the course of your Christian life, have the answers ever been startlingly specific, almost to the point of seeming to you to strain such mundane explanations as coincidence, etc.? It seems that the "laboratory mentality" that you mention is a common one here at JREF. Many here seem to take the approach that a phenomenon does not exist if not confirmed on demand using double blind protocols with independent replication on demand, and with results published in peer reviewed journals. Underlying this, it seems to me, is a faith that the universe is composed of matter and that that matter expresses and obeys unvarying laws that operate consistently and without exception at all times anywhere in the universe. Thanks for sharing the Christian apologetics site. There's a lot of material there. It seems like those writing on the site are trying to use intellect in defense of a conservative Christian theology. I remember Lord Kenneth once remarking something to the effect that intellect and Christian apologetics are incompatible. I wonder how he would view the material on this site. Mike
Mike D. Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 321

29th September 2003, 07:20 PM	#3
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Sorry I was so late in getting back to you on this, Mike. For the past few weeks, I've been fighting with the boss, particularly about hours of service, and how they're to be logged and the like. (This is a very long story in and of itself. Not particularly fit for this forum at this time. Maybe in a few days...) Let me try and explain it this way: I started out getting a strong dose of what was considered "correct" theology from the outset. Part of this was that I'd made so many mistakes in my life prior to my conversion (or return, if you prefer), I wasn't about to place myself in "harm's way" again. At the time, the big fear was about the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and his cultists running about the country. I also had several relatives who were deeply into the Mormon Church, and had a girlfriend at one point who was in the Jehovah's Witnesses. You might say I had incentive to get it right. The problem, though, is that I kept running into the cliquishness of the Church, and kept finding myself battling on one side or another, either as one of the "Ins" or one of the "Outs" against it. Scripturally, it's wrong. Had I been part of a Charismatic Church? Several. I even spoke out against the (ab)use of "Speaking in Tongues." You cannot justify what we're seeing in Charismatic Churches today under what was described in the Bible. So what turned it over for me? Partly the JREF. Part of it, though, was that I was finally convinced by the actions of people who claimed they believed in God. When it all comes down to it, the only proof we have of God's existence is changed lives, and acts of compassion. That is absent in most churches today, and statistically, you can fake the rest. Does this help? Do you need more?

29th September 2003, 08:20 PM	#5
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Quote: Originally posted by Mike D. Roadtoad, Sounds like you had a mixture of both an emphasis on correct theology and experiences with charismatic/pentecostal worship. Thanks for filling me in. I started the thread because a question arose in my mind about Christians who move away from their faith due, at least in part, to exposure to ideas here at JREF. I wondered if it would make any difference if the churches they were involved with emphasized the experiential or charismatic aspects of Christianity or if those churches did not have such an emphasis. Thanks again for sharing! Mike I would say, Mike, much of what I encountered here on JREF was actually confirming what I was coming to believe myself. Thankfully, I got a lot of encouragement from folks like Rikzilla, Yahweh, Yahzi, Kittynh, and a whole host of others. Rather than attack my beliefs, or me, for that matter, they asked questions, encouraged discussion, and helped me press onward. I didn't expect that. It helped.