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FireGarden · 13th September 2003, 06:09 AM

I wish that this was better suited to the "humour" forum. But unfortunately (as near as I can tell) this is not a hoax or parody site.
http://www.harunyahya.com/32terroris...nism_soc07.php

Quote:

The Fruit of 'The Law of the Jungle': Fascism

As Darwinism fed racism in the 19th century, it formed the basis of an ideology that would develop and drown the world in blood in the 20thcentury: Nazism.

[...]
Darwinism and Terrorism

As we have so far seen, Darwinism is at the root of various ideologies of violence that spelled disaster to mankind in the 20thcentury. However, as well as these ideologies, Darwinism also defines an 'ethical understanding' and 'method' that could influence various world views. The fundamental concept behind this understanding and method is 'fighting those who are not one of us'.

Please pardon me for not taking the time to find the "irony meter explodes" smilie.

The author of the site, Harun Yahya, has written some books that attack evolution. Including one published, on this site http://www.harunyahya.com/20questions02.php, that I'm trying to start a debate on at another forum.

If that debate gets going, I would appreciate some help from biologists etc, as I didn't even do biology O-level (For some weird reason, you had to choose between Latin and biology at my school. I hardly remember a word of Latin. I've used it that often.)

I predict that my future includes a lot of reading at Talkorigins.com!!

[Edited to fix 2nd link and quote from page]

arcticpenguin · 13th September 2003, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Darwinism also defines an 'ethical understanding' and 'method' that could influence various world views. The fundamental concept behind this understanding and method is 'fighting those who are not one of us'.

Of course that never happened before the Darwinian theory of evolution was introduced.

A little history might serve you as well as biology. The first thing that leapt to my mind was the Crusades, but of course you could go back to Old Testament times and look at all the smiting of neighboring tribes the Israelites did, with God's approval.

One approach a knowledge of biology might help in is the evolutionary aspects of altruism.

arcticpenguin · 13th September 2003, 06:45 AM

The author of that seems to freely use "Darwinism" in place of "Social Darwinism'.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/social.html

[quote]
Another such view is "Social Darwinism", which holds that social policy should allow the weak and unfit to fail and die, and that this is not only good policy but morally right. The only real connection between Darwinism and Social Darwinism is the name. The real source of Social Darwinism is Herbert Spencer and the tradition going back to Hobbes via Malthus, not Darwin's own writings, though Darwin gained some inspiration on the effects of population growth from Malthus.
[quote]

Talk.origins is the probably the best online resource for info on evolution.

c4ts · 13th September 2003, 08:13 AM

I prefer Icke's 9-11 conspiracy theory myself. It's about as coherent, anyway.

FireGarden · 13th September 2003, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Of course that never happened before the Darwinian theory of evolution was introduced. A little history might serve you as well as biology.

No-one that I'm debating is actually blaming terrorism on Darwinism. It's merely the case that the author of the book in question has (apparently) made that claim. But I take your point.

Quote:

One approach a knowledge of biology might help in is the evolutionary aspects of altruism

There's this site that talks about some of the "Virtual World" experiments into altruism.

Quote:

http://www.amasci.com/weird/hevolv.html
We are discovering that cooperation is one of the most powerful evolutionary forces around. We are finding that creativity wins over strength. In the battle to survive, creatures who collaborate with each other can burst ahead of the selfish and brutal "WINNERS." Those who team up and work to create the best food, mates, or environmental niches, are the ones who succeed.

[...] The main rule of life is NOT the survival of the strong at the expense of the weak. Instead the rule often seems to be "survival of the reciprocal altruists." Creatures who collaborate in order to reach mutual goals are the ones who thrive. Creatures who band together to form powerful meta-creatures are the ones who conquer the world.

[...]A very successful creature is a simple one known as Tit-for-Tat. When dealing with other creatures, Tit-for-tat first assumes that the other creature is unselfish and "good," and so it attempts to cooperate. Then, after the first interaction, Tit-for-tat will remember the behavior of its opponent, and will turn their behavior back against them. If you screw with a Tit-for-tat creature, then Tit-for tat will screw you right back during the next negotiation. But if you treat Tit-for-tat nice, then Tit-for-tat will remember this when next you meet. However, there is an additional and interesting effect. Because Tit-for-tat always gives other creatures the benefit of the doubt on the first meeting, teams made of Tit-for-tat creatures don't try to hurt each other. In the artificial battlefield, Tit-for-tat societies can quickly grow large and wipe out their bad-ass "Meanie" opponents.

I don't know how accurate the above is.

There's also this:

Quote:

http://www.amasci.com/weird/globe.html#marg
In 1970, biologist Margulis was not only denied funding but subjected tointense scorn by reviewers at the [National Science] Foundation. Thetheory for which she was denied funding then - that cells evolved througha symbiotic union of primitive organisms - has now become accepted dogma,cited as fact in recent textbooks.

"I was flatly turned down," Margulis said, and the grants officers added"that I should never apply again."

But at least science moves on - eventually.
You can't keep a good idea down forever.

FireGarden · 13th September 2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
I prefer Icke's 9-11 conspiracy theory myself. It's about as coherent, anyway.

Haven't heard that.
I assume you mean David Icke..
Ex-Jesus, 12-foot-lizard phobic, David Icke...

Yahzi · 13th September 2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FireGarden

I don't know how accurate the above is.

Mathematically, it is accurate.

Computer professors sometimes challenge their students to write a program to compete in some virtual setting. The joke, of course, is that the students will spend hours encoding the most elaborate strategies and schemes, all of which will be beaten in statsitical trials by the simple "tit-for-tat" strategy.

For the professor, it's a lesson on algorithym design.

espritch · 13th September 2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

As Darwinism fed racism in the 19th century, it formed the basis of an ideology that would develop and drown the world in blood in the 20thcentury: Nazism.

One possible way to counter an anti-evolution argument based on the supposed connection between evolution and Nazism is to point out that the roots of anti Semitism in Germany are much older than Darwinian evolution and one of the major proponents of these ideas was non other than Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran church, one of the main Christian sects in Germany. The following link gives some extracts from Martin Luther’s “The Jews and Their Lies” (1543).

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/ant...r_on_Jews.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.us-israel..._Jews.html</a>

Quote:

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer selfglory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

Many more such quotes at the link.

13th September 2003, 06:09 AM	#1
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	The real cause of terrorism!!! I wish that this was better suited to the "humour" forum. But unfortunately (as near as I can tell) this is not a hoax or parody site. http://www.harunyahya.com/32terroris...nism_soc07.php Quote: The Fruit of 'The Law of the Jungle': Fascism As Darwinism fed racism in the 19th century, it formed the basis of an ideology that would develop and drown the world in blood in the 20thcentury: Nazism. [...] Darwinism and Terrorism As we have so far seen, Darwinism is at the root of various ideologies of violence that spelled disaster to mankind in the 20thcentury. However, as well as these ideologies, Darwinism also defines an 'ethical understanding' and 'method' that could influence various world views. The fundamental concept behind this understanding and method is 'fighting those who are not one of us'. Please pardon me for not taking the time to find the "irony meter explodes" smilie. The author of the site, Harun Yahya, has written some books that attack evolution. Including one published, on this site http://www.harunyahya.com/20questions02.php, that I'm trying to start a debate on at another forum. If that debate gets going, I would appreciate some help from biologists etc, as I didn't even do biology O-level (For some weird reason, you had to choose between Latin and biology at my school. I hardly remember a word of Latin. I've used it that often.) I predict that my future includes a lot of reading at Talkorigins.com!! [Edited to fix 2nd link and quote from page]
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

13th September 2003, 06:40 AM	#2
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Darwinism also defines an 'ethical understanding' and 'method' that could influence various world views. The fundamental concept behind this understanding and method is 'fighting those who are not one of us'. Of course that never happened before the Darwinian theory of evolution was introduced. A little history might serve you as well as biology. The first thing that leapt to my mind was the Crusades, but of course you could go back to Old Testament times and look at all the smiting of neighboring tribes the Israelites did, with God's approval. One approach a knowledge of biology might help in is the evolutionary aspects of altruism.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

13th September 2003, 06:45 AM	#3
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	The author of that seems to freely use "Darwinism" in place of "Social Darwinism'. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/social.html [quote] Another such view is "Social Darwinism", which holds that social policy should allow the weak and unfit to fail and die, and that this is not only good policy but morally right. The only real connection between Darwinism and Social Darwinism is the name. The real source of Social Darwinism is Herbert Spencer and the tradition going back to Hobbes via Malthus, not Darwin's own writings, though Darwin gained some inspiration on the effects of population growth from Malthus. [quote] Talk.origins is the probably the best online resource for info on evolution.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

13th September 2003, 08:13 AM	#4
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	I prefer Icke's 9-11 conspiracy theory myself. It's about as coherent, anyway.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

13th September 2003, 08:30 AM	#5
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Quote: Of course that never happened before the Darwinian theory of evolution was introduced. A little history might serve you as well as biology. No-one that I'm debating is actually blaming terrorism on Darwinism. It's merely the case that the author of the book in question has (apparently) made that claim. But I take your point. Quote: One approach a knowledge of biology might help in is the evolutionary aspects of altruism There's this site that talks about some of the "Virtual World" experiments into altruism. Quote: http://www.amasci.com/weird/hevolv.html We are discovering that cooperation is one of the most powerful evolutionary forces around. We are finding that creativity wins over strength. In the battle to survive, creatures who collaborate with each other can burst ahead of the selfish and brutal "WINNERS." Those who team up and work to create the best food, mates, or environmental niches, are the ones who succeed. [...] The main rule of life is NOT the survival of the strong at the expense of the weak. Instead the rule often seems to be "survival of the reciprocal altruists." Creatures who collaborate in order to reach mutual goals are the ones who thrive. Creatures who band together to form powerful meta-creatures are the ones who conquer the world. [...]A very successful creature is a simple one known as Tit-for-Tat. When dealing with other creatures, Tit-for-tat first assumes that the other creature is unselfish and "good," and so it attempts to cooperate. Then, after the first interaction, Tit-for-tat will remember the behavior of its opponent, and will turn their behavior back against them. If you screw with a Tit-for-tat creature, then Tit-for tat will screw you right back during the next negotiation. But if you treat Tit-for-tat nice, then Tit-for-tat will remember this when next you meet. However, there is an additional and interesting effect. Because Tit-for-tat always gives other creatures the benefit of the doubt on the first meeting, teams made of Tit-for-tat creatures don't try to hurt each other. In the artificial battlefield, Tit-for-tat societies can quickly grow large and wipe out their bad-ass "Meanie" opponents. I don't know how accurate the above is. There's also this: Quote: http://www.amasci.com/weird/globe.html#marg In 1970, biologist Margulis was not only denied funding but subjected tointense scorn by reviewers at the [National Science] Foundation. Thetheory for which she was denied funding then - that cells evolved througha symbiotic union of primitive organisms - has now become accepted dogma,cited as fact in recent textbooks. "I was flatly turned down," Margulis said, and the grants officers added"that I should never apply again." But at least science moves on - eventually. You can't keep a good idea down forever.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

13th September 2003, 08:37 AM	#6
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts I prefer Icke's 9-11 conspiracy theory myself. It's about as coherent, anyway. Haven't heard that. I assume you mean David Icke.. Ex-Jesus, 12-foot-lizard phobic, David Icke...
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

13th September 2003, 11:55 AM	#7
Yahzi Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 2,672	Quote: Originally posted by FireGarden I don't know how accurate the above is. Mathematically, it is accurate. Computer professors sometimes challenge their students to write a program to compete in some virtual setting. The joke, of course, is that the students will spend hours encoding the most elaborate strategies and schemes, all of which will be beaten in statsitical trials by the simple "tit-for-tat" strategy. For the professor, it's a lesson on algorithym design.
	__________________ ID lives in a cardboard refrigerator box and throws rocks through the windows of evolution's unfinished mansion. ---Beleth Buy my book! www.WorldOfPrime.com

13th September 2003, 01:20 PM	#8
espritch Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,380	Quote: As Darwinism fed racism in the 19th century, it formed the basis of an ideology that would develop and drown the world in blood in the 20thcentury: Nazism. One possible way to counter an anti-evolution argument based on the supposed connection between evolution and Nazism is to point out that the roots of anti Semitism in Germany are much older than Darwinian evolution and one of the major proponents of these ideas was non other than Martin Luther, founder of the Lutheran church, one of the main Christian sects in Germany. The following link gives some extracts from Martin Luther’s “The Jews and Their Lies” (1543). http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/ant...r_on_Jews.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.us-israel..._Jews.html</a> Quote: Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer selfglory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them. Many more such quotes at the link.
	__________________ "I'm the master of low expectations." - G. W. Bush