Uri Geller - where's the harm?

[Peter Morris]

What does Uri Geller do that's so bad?

AFAIK he receives money for performing his conjuring tricks on TV, and for his books, etc, i.e. he's just an entertainer.

Asking for information here, has he ever, for instance:

- set himself up as a psychic healer

- attempted to start a religion around himself

- charged money for psychic business advice

- given fake messages from dead relatives

or anything similar?

I'm aware of his attempts to help a British soccer team, but I think that was just a publicity stunt for the team, and they got what they paid for - publicity.

I'm unaware of him ever trading on the grief of the bereaved, or anything really nasty like that.

Does anyone have specific information about him doing so? I'm asking for information.

[Iamme]

Peter Morris---Peter Morris? Hmmmm. I loved Mission Impossible, with PETER Graves and Greg MORRIS.

But when people start claiming they have the power to bend spoons...THAT is akin to them saying that they have tapped into some powers like God possesses. This could lead to people bowing down and worshiping such a person.

[Ratman_tf]

Yes. He's lying and deceitful. He uses magic tricks and tries to pass them off as real psychic phenomena.

It's not against the law if he doens't try to make money off of it, but don't expect people to not call him on his ********.

Oh, and remember the dark ages? Superstition and ignorance are dangerous enough.

[reprise]

Geller mightn't make direct claims to be a healer, but he does claim to have been the catalyst in some people's recovery from certain conditions and published those claims on his website.

Geller on healing

[UKBoy1977]

He leads many people to believe things about the world that are not true. This is not helpful to society.

[Ladewig]

I am always careful when describing my opinions of Mr. Geller because he has a whole page on his website devoted to legal battles that he has won.

He has sold out of his special quartz crystals, but the page devoted to crystal testimonials does have this disclaimer at the bottom

Quote:

I, as Uri Geller, cannot substantiate some of these claims, but I do know that as in science some materials are considered good or bad conductors of energy. Crystals are considered efficient conductors and amplifiers of energy. In the USA, NASA used programmed crystals on small aluminium cards to help the astronauts with the problems of weightlessness. The crystals were charged with the earth's mechanical vibration of 7.83 Hertz. The result was that the astronauts were able to spend more time out of the earth's magnetic field without suffering from their previous disorders. Also it is now widely recognised that quartz has an excellent facility for memory storage, be it in the average wrist watch or at the front of modern computer chip technology. Yes, the modern computer is founded on ancient quartz.

The original question was what harm does he do. I consider spreading the story about NASA's programming crystals on aluminum card to protect astronauts to be more harmful than helpful.

[T'ai Chi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ratman_tf

Oh, and remember the dark ages? Superstition and ignorance are dangerous enough.

So I guess I don't get it. Uri is going to somehow plunge us into a new dark ages???

[athon]

This is always the hardest question to answer, not because it is defficult to respond to, but because if the person needs to ask, they will find it hard to grasp the nature of the outcome.

Science is based on two main principles - the ability to deny what your senses tell you and admit you are wrong (what I call in my science classes, the Principle of Humility); and the concept of having to build on what is already known.

In the past it has been possible for one person to have a grasp of all that is 'known'. Scientists were dabblers in all fields - maths, languages, history etc. These days we rely on people who have small pieces of the knowledge bank and can work together to analyse it, interpret it and exploreit in relation to the every flowing stream of new data and facts.

The strength of the process relies on strong foundations - not accepting something simply because the mysticism is appealing, but because it has its strength in both evidence and the solving of inherent flaws in a theory. People like UG indirectly make this whole process unstable. If people accept that telekinesis is possible, they create a foundation where other sciences can be built on that incorrect assumption.

Now 99% of people do not overtly contribute to this process, in that they do not alter the foundations or build on them. However if it is accepted in out global society that fanciful notions can be accepted as truth without evidence, then even the weakest of foundation stones could waste funding, time, and even lives.

So no, Uri Geller would not be responsible for a new Dark Ages. However there is a balance where every vocal advocate for pseudoscience has to be opposed by a voice of reason that supports the scientific method.

Athon

[plindboe]

I don't think he does any direct harm, but that's not what bothers people. Here we have a person who lies to people, who shows people he is a superior being by doing cheap tricks, and in turn people around the world believe him and worship him because of it. That's what angers people so much, that this person is worshipped for being an obsessive lier.

Peter

[Peter Morris]

Quote:

This is always the hardest question to answer, not because it is defficult to respond to, but because if the person needs to ask, they will find it hard to grasp the nature of the outcome.

Not really.

Consider, for instance, David blane's latest stunt. Randi's commentry indicates this is a magic trick, but he's presenting it as a genuine feat of endurance.

Compare that to Gellers TV performances where he bends a spoon with a magic trick, but tells people that its a genuine paranormal feat.

I'd like to know why Randi praises Blane, yet is so obsessed with attacking Geller.

[reprise]

Quote:

Originally posted by plindboe
I don't think he does any direct harm, but that's not what bothers people. Here we have a person who lies to people, who shows people he is a superior being by doing cheap tricks, and in turn people around the world believe him and worship him because of it. That's what angers people so much, that this person is worshipped for being an obsessive lier.

Peter

But when people believe him about the cheap tricks and start to worship him because of that ill-founded belief aren't they then more likely to believe him when he writes about healing and follow the advice he gives on that subject?

[Zep]

This is why Geller is not only a pest, he's dangerous.

Quote:

I, as Uri Geller, cannot substantiate some of these claims,

Then he should have stopped right there. But on he goes anyway like he DOES do this...

but I do know that as in science some materials are considered good or bad conductors of energy.

Now there's a vague statement if there ever was one. "Energy"? What type(s) of "energy" specifically?

Crystals are considered efficient conductors and amplifiers of energy.

Repeat cow-flops.

In the USA, NASA used programmed crystals on small aluminium cards to help the astronauts with the problems of weightlessness.

He's pretty good at condensing lots of cow-flop into small spaces, isn't he! No details, no references. How did the astronauts use these "magic devices"? What "problems with weightlessness"?

The crystals were charged with the earth's mechanical vibration of 7.83 Hertz.

Piled higher and deeper. Reinforcing one inanity with another.

The result was that the astronauts were able to spend more time out of the earth's magnetic field without suffering from their previous disorders.

On he goes. What "previous disorders"? Which astronauts? How far outside the earth's magnetic field were they? (Never mind that it extends a very long way into space - well above most orbiting levels). How does this "magic device" help?

Also it is now widely recognised that quartz has an excellent facility for memory storage, be it in the average wrist watch or at the front of modern computer chip technology.

Logically invalid connection due to complete lack of technical understanding. Quartz on its own doesn't have any "memory" capability at all. The quartz in a wristwatch is used to maintain frequency accuracy of the watch mechanism, which is electrical. Computer chips are made from molten silicon derived from quartz, impregnated (doped) with other materials in precise ways, and do not work without electricity! Junior school stuff for most of the world. All Geller is doing here is displaying either his vast ignorance, or a vast attempt at deception. Or both.

Yes, the modern computer is founded on ancient quartz.

Another misleading and pointless statement. What has it to do with anything at all, particularly??

The harm is that ignorant people lap this sort of tripe up as though it were gospel. And then they pass it on to others, and worse still, to their children. It's hard enough to get kids interested in real science and how to do it, but when cow manure like this (which I rank at the same depth in the mire as Creationism) clouding their minds, it becomes even harder.

I have a child, and I WILL NOT stand for this.

[plindboe]

Quote:

Originally posted by reprise
But when people believe him about the cheap tricks and start to worship him because of that ill-founded belief aren't they then more likely to believe him when he writes about healing and follow the advice he gives on that subject?

Well, yes. But healing in itself isn't harmful. It's only when people choose to turn to healing instead of real medical help that it causes harm, which I can't imagine he has adviced people to do in his writing.(Correct me if I'm wrong)

Peter

[CFLarsen]

Peter,

Do you believe that Geller is bending spoons by paranormal means? If you do, could you take a look at this article and tell me where he does not use his hands?

Spoon-bending - How Uri Geller really does it!

[plindboe]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Peter,

Do you believe that Geller is bending spoons by paranormal means? If you do, could you take a look at this article and tell me where he does not use his hands?

Spoon-bending - How Uri Geller really does it!

No! What on Earth made you think that? I merely stated that I don't believe he is harmful. He is deceitful and cons people, and I dislike him for that, but since it's people that love to be conned into believing, he causes no direct harm(that I know of).

(btw, nice article)

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by plindboe
No! What on Earth made you think that? I merely stated that I don't believe he is harmful. He is deceitful and cons people, and I dislike him for that, but since it's people that love to be conned into believing, he causes no direct harm(that I know of).

Not you, Peter. I meant Peter. As is Peter Morris....(OK, that could have been clearer..! )

Quote:

Originally posted by plindboe
(btw, nice article)

(thank you!)

[plindboe]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Not you, Peter. I meant Peter. As is Peter Morris....(OK, that could have been clearer..! )

Oh, hehe.

[Chupacabras]

Telling lies is harmful - it misleads others into perceiving reality in a wrong way, and thus making wrong decisions. This can harm your pocket, your ego, your human relations and your body.

UG site has a lot of lies.

[Ratman_tf]

Quote:

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


So I guess I don't get it. Uri is going to somehow plunge us into a new dark ages???

Not him specifically and only, but his deceit fosters an attitude of superstition and ignorance. This leads to bad things.

[Renfield]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris


Not really.

Consider, for instance, David blane's latest stunt. Randi's commentry indicates this is a magic trick, but he's presenting it as a genuine feat of endurance.

Compare that to Gellers TV performances where he bends a spoon with a magic trick, but tells people that its a genuine paranormal feat.

I'd like to know why Randi praises Blane, yet is so obsessed with attacking Geller.

Blaine has always reffered to himself as a magician. He's pretty straightforward about he does, unlike Uri Gellar.

[SteveGrenard]

It's not a magic trick, just a trick and not a particularly clever one at that.

Blaine has studied the literature of starvation carefully and fully well knows how much weight he will lose and how much starvation he can endure before lapsing into a coma. He is claiming he will stay in the box 44 days, whereas there are examples of hunger strikers in prison (i.e. IRA members) who have lasted up to sixty and even up to 63 days before lapsing into coma and dying.

A man who starved himself to death in 1917 lost 41% of his body wt in 63 days. In 1981 Bobby Sands lost 30% of his body wt in 60 days while in a British prison. Blaine projects he will lose about 23 kgs . Before he started he gained a great deal of weight
because he knows the main determinant of how long he can starve is determined by how much body fat one has.

After two days of starvation the body shifts into starvation mode metabolic state: break down of fat, release of fatty acids and glycerol which is converted into glucose. Muscle burns fatty acids,
conserving glucose for use by the brain, the organ that needs it most.

One problem Blaine will have is salt. If he just drinks water, and does not replenish salt, he could be unconscious by the end of September and the test will end on that note. We'll see.
He probably knows this and if there is any trick, it will be for him to access a supply of salt, perhaps even salt that is been made into coating the walls of his prison. After about 3 weeks with no salt and only water his blood pressure will drop, he will become dizzy and he will pass out. IRA hunger strikers took salt tablets.
It is also possible to dissolve measured doses of salt in the water he is given to drink and its presence is invisible to anyone just looking at it (they would have to taste the water) so this may be another aspect of the trick.

The other problems his stunt will cause are not insurmountable: they would be psychological and physical. Without exercise he will experience muscle cramping and then wasting or atrophy and will need physical therapy to regain the ability to walk afterwards. I have not seen what he is doing but with stasis there is also an increased risk of thromboembolism
which his doctor consultants properly have covered. Is he allowed to take meds? I dont know but an occasional baby aspirin would help in this respect. As far as enduring the psychological trauma Blaine will probably demonstrate that he is extremely strong willed and self disciplined and will be amusing himself with a number of thoughts and activities to help combat mania. Allowing the hooligans to pelt stuff at him is one way for him to externalize and re-focus his emotions.

[athon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris


Not really.

Consider, for instance, David blane's latest stunt. Randi's commentry indicates this is a magic trick, but he's presenting it as a genuine feat of endurance.

Compare that to Gellers TV performances where he bends a spoon with a magic trick, but tells people that its a genuine paranormal feat.

I'd like to know why Randi praises Blane, yet is so obsessed with attacking Geller.

Simple. In relation to my last post, Uri Geller supports false reasoning for the tricks he offers. Blaine does not. Hence Geller is contributing to a society where false foundations are created.

As I've said before, the search for answers is not a bad thing. Those who continue to look for extraterrestrial life, search nature for cures, and even put pins into people in the vain hope it might unlock a powerful healing technique are all ultimately contributing to the tools mankind can use to control the world around him. It is when people adopt untested, unquantified and unqualified speculations as robust theories - where they can be built upon as if they were 'true' - that people's lives are adversely affected.

Athon

[Peter Morris]

Quote:

Peter,

Do you believe that Geller is bending spoons by paranormal means? If you do, could you take a look at this article and tell me where he does not use his hands?

What gave you that impression?

Why do the Randi fanatics have this idea? Either you worship Randi as a living god, or you believe the woo-woos. Anyone who disagrees with Randi on the slightest point must therefore believe everything Geller or Jon Edwards says.

Read my original post - I specifically said Geller uses conjuring tricks. In my second post, I said <<Compare that to Gellers TV performances where he bends a spoon with a magic trick, but tells people that its a genuine paranormal feat>> If you don't understand this, email Randi and ask him what the words 'conjuring tricks' mean.

How mant times do we have to go through this? Just because I point out some lies Randi told, or tests he runs that don't make sense, this does not indicate that I believe the people he tests.

How many times do have to tell you that before it sinks in? Why do you people have so much trouble understanding this point?

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris
How many times do have to tell you that before it sinks in? Why do you people have so much trouble understanding this point?

It was a simple question, Peter. No need for this emotional outburst.

Since you don't believe Geller is doing something paranormal, how do you feel about him claiming to be?

[SteveGrenard]

James Randi and Uri Geller have a long and contentious history going back to when Randi debunked Geller on the Johnny Carson Show and Randi orchestrated with his pal, Leon Jaroff, to write up Geller as a fraud in Time Magazine based on that. At the time Randi was a high ranking representative of CSICOP and there was no JREF. Jaroff brags he debunked Geller to this day. Randi does so sometimes weekly.

Geller sued Randi and no doubt a lot of others involved with this but some probably settled and we heard nothing more. CSICOP defended the suit, it cost them a great deal of money and while
Geller walked away with nothing or next to nothing, the legal fees to CSICOP and Randi were monumental. Randi and CSICOP parted ways some time after that (I do not have the whole time line) and he established JREF. Carson in fact gave JREF a hundred grand a few years back through the Johnny Carson Foundation.

So there is no love lost between Geller and Randi, and Randi obviously hates the man with a vengeance and I am sure the same goes for Geller v. Randi.

I agree .... compared to some, Geller's parlor tricks are completey harmless and the degree of invective Randi uses regularly against Geller is way out of proportion to the nature of his claims.
But the above, IMHO, seems to be the rationale for it.

[CFLarsen]

Steve,

It is very telling that in a thread dealing with Geller, you manage to take swipes at CSICOP, Randi and JREF.

You don't consider Geller harmful at all?

Do you think that Geller can do anything that is paranormal?

[FutileJester]

Geller doesn't push my emotional buttons like some more obviously dangerous types, like psychic surgeons. I just harbor a basic disgust towards him for continually saying he can do what he can't, claiming credit for things that he didn't do, and using the legal system to stifle criticism. Like politicians (who I'm usually disgusted with as well).

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris
Consider, for instance, David blane's latest stunt. Randi's commentry indicates this is a magic trick, but he's presenting it as a genuine feat of endurance.

Compare that to Gellers TV performances where he bends a spoon with a magic trick, but tells people that its a genuine paranormal feat.

I believe Blaine's feat is both a trick and a feat of endurance. Regardless of what tricks are used, it takes extraordinary endurance and discipline just to stay in the box. But the real difference as compared to Geller is that there is no paranormal claim. Blaine may hide how he does a trick, but he doesn't claim (AFAIK) that he is exhibiting any paranormal power or defying known science. Geller does.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris
What does Uri Geller do that's so bad?

AFAIK he receives money for performing his conjuring tricks on TV, and for his books, etc, i.e. he's just an entertainer.

Asking for information here, has he ever, for instance:

- set himself up as a psychic healer

- attempted to start a religion around himself

- charged money for psychic business advice

- given fake messages from dead relatives

or anything similar?

I'm aware of his attempts to help a British soccer team, but I think that was just a publicity stunt for the team, and they got what they paid for - publicity.

I'm unaware of him ever trading on the grief of the bereaved, or anything really nasty like that.

Does anyone have specific information about him doing so? I'm asking for information.

Let me begin by adding my apprecation to that expressed by others regarding your work on the original "Mission Impossible": Thank you.

Let me answer your question by asking one.

Do you have kids? If not, suppose you did. At what age do you think that it would be healthy for them to know that Santa, the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and so on are myths? Why? How are these guys different from Geller? I think that the answer is that institutionalized ignorance impeads a society. It is cancerous.

Quote:

Originally posted by athon


Science is based on two main principles - the ability to deny what your senses tell you

I find some of the things that people come out with on this board utterly incredible!

Quote:

Originally posted by athon
If people accept that telekinesis is possible, they create a foundation where other sciences can be built on that incorrect assumption.

Clearly psychokinesis is possible, and we have a phenomenal amount of evidence suggestive of its existence. But even if there were no evidence at all, it is stupidity beyond belief to declare it as impossible. This misunderstands the nature of science.

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Peter,

Do you believe that Geller is bending spoons by paranormal means? If you do, could you take a look at this article and tell me where he does not use his hands?

Spoon-bending - How Uri Geller really does it!

The fact that Geller is not doing it by paranormal means constitutes no evidence whatsoever that it is impossible to acheive by paranormal means.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chupacabras
Telling lies is harmful - it misleads others into perceiving reality in a wrong way, and thus making wrong decisions. This can harm your pocket, your ego, your human relations and your body.

UG site has a lot of lies.

So what about the lies that "skeptics" continually come out with?

Such as there is no evidence for paranormal phenomena?

That paranormal phenomena are impossible?

That on average the less well educated believe it, or the gullible and naive, or those that have a poor understanding of probability?

I could go on and on. Lots of harmful lies there. I find "skeptics" disgusting and despicable. They are holding back possible knowledge of what we ultimately are and the ultimate nature of the world that we inhabit.

And they advance a unintelligible metaphysic (ie materialism) which neither reason or evidence can justify, then have the effrontery to claim that science suggests it or even entails it!

Complete stupidity almost beyond belief

Quote:

Originally posted by Ratman_tf


Not him specifically and only, but his deceit fosters an attitude of superstition and ignorance.

I don't see how. What has people believing in macro-psychokinesis have to do with superstition? And it only leads to ignorance if in fact their beliefs are wrong. Got any evidence to suppose their beliefs are incorrect?

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


I find some of the things that people come out with on this board utterly incredible!

Was in response to:Originally posted by athon


Science is based on two main principles - the ability to deny what your senses tell you


What do you disagree with in this sentence? It personally think that the statement is not inclusive enough. Are you suggesting that the senses trump reality?

[De_Bunk]

In answer to your original question...

At one time or another., spanning 20 or so years,..(Run a quick check on Google...Israeli press...UK press...Check it yourself...i aint your "go-fer"..)

Oh but "YES"...to all your questions...

Sorry to burst your bubble, "Wanna believe its real" kook...


DB

( 74 posts...and he has to mention Geller... )

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
The fact that Geller is not doing it by paranormal means constitutes no evidence whatsoever that it is impossible to acheive by paranormal means.

Did I say that?

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed


Was in response to:Originally posted by athon


Science is based on two main principles - the ability to deny what your senses tell you

Nonsensical since science itself ultimately appeals to further sense data to "correct" the original sense data.

Quote:

What do you disagree with in this sentence? It personally think that the statement is not inclusive enough. Are you suggesting that the senses trump reality? [/b]

The senses are reality.

[De_Bunk]

Claus...

Go get him...

You are much better than me at turning people up their own "a**'es"....

Respect to you...

DB

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


So what about the lies that "skeptics" continually come out with?

Such as there is no evidence for paranormal phenomena?

I think that one has to apply the sniff test. The paranormal is cool and it's reality would change everythin we know and do. Hunks of science would have to be rewritten, holy books would have to be read in a new light, scientists would be piling on to come up with the next discovery. None of this has happened.

That paranormal phenomena are impossible?

Only a fool would make that statement, or a person with an agenda to attribute it to someone else. A correct statement might be somerthing like "paranormal phenomena are impossible given our current understanding of what makes things tick"

That on average the less well educated believe it, or the gullible and naive, or those that have a poor understanding of probability?

Never gave this one much thought. I suppose that I might add "or are desperate, or are berieved to the point of being inconsolable, or have a deep disatisfaction with their personal realities, or have lived a lie for so long they have convinced themselves (thinking JE here)". Would you not agree that the most ubiquitous example of paranormal belief is religion? How would you characterize the demographics of believers? Religion, micro-whatevers, same thing.

I could go on and on. Lots of harmful lies there. I find "skeptics" disgusting and despicable. They are holding back possible knowledge of what we ultimately are and the ultimate nature of the world that we inhabit.

Yet, after thousands of years of searching, nada. Micro-whooists? That's it? I find people who seduce fine minds from work that might benefit humanity in more concrete terms pretty disgusting and dispicable, myself. To each his own. I think that the difference between us is that I really don't know, you think that this stuff exists and will be rude and stamp your feet about it

And they advance a unintelligible metaphysic (ie materialism) which neither reason or evidence can justify, then have the effrontery to claim that science suggests it or even entails it!

Well. It does require a rather high level of abstract thought to appreciate the implications of the evidence at hand. Not everyone can do it, which is entirely understandable. It is also understandable that such a situation causes a reversion to religion. Less taxing on the brain, don't ya know? To each his own

Complete stupidity almost beyond belief

Unquestionably

[gnome]

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


I find some of the things that people come out with on this board utterly incredible!

Explain how that is so incredible?