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JSFolk · 13th September 2003, 11:05 PM

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...ws/6759394.htm

"EDUCATION: Parents push quiet time in schools
BY JOSH VERGES
Pioneer Press

Public schools across the Twin Cities struggle with low test scores and discipline problems. The solution, a local parent group says, might be as simple as a little meditation.

Transcendental Meditation is a stress-reduction technique that puts the mind at ease. The group of parents from Minneapolis and St. Paul plans to submit a proposal to the school board, recommending schools offer TM to students during or before and after school...."

I wonder if they will teach them to "levitate" too?

reprise · 13th September 2003, 11:27 PM

I wonder if they are indeed teaching TM™ or whether they are just teaching meditation and other relaxation and stress reduction techniques. If it's the latter, I wouldn't have a problem with the idea - in fact I think that high school is an ideal time for people to learn stress management skills.

corplinx · 13th September 2003, 11:30 PM

I guess the influx of uncivil children from Detroit had nothing to do with the falling test scores. These kids just need alpha waves.

reprise · 13th September 2003, 11:42 PM

I have read no research indicating that stress management leads to better test scores, but there have been credible studies into other aspects of meditation which verify its effectiveness as a general stress reduction tool, and I'm aware of at least one study into the behaviour of prisoners which recorded a drop in discipline problems after they had been taught meditation techniques.

subgenius · 13th September 2003, 11:48 PM

TM is one of several dangerous cults that weasel their way into some pinhead administrators' brains.
Its a fraud, and should be resisted vigorously.

Yahweh · 14th September 2003, 01:05 AM

Send Lord Kenneth to the school. I'm sure any other self-described genious would up those low test scores just as well, but I think Kenneth should be the guy...

JSFolk · 14th September 2003, 10:12 AM

Reprise, the article contains a paragraph describing TM and linking to the TM home page... I don't know if that means they are teaching them the whole kit and kaboodle, but it looks like the teachings are official TM stuff.

KelvinG · 14th September 2003, 11:50 AM

There is nothing wrong with teaching kids relaxation and deep breathing techniques, but to sell it under the guise of TM is a little stupid.
Meditation can certainly be beneficial in terms of relaxing your mind and body without having to be associatied with new age spirituality or anything other worldly.

Pyrian · 14th September 2003, 01:25 PM

Meditation = fine

Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult

Clear?

reprise · 14th September 2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JSFolk
Reprise, the article contains a paragraph describing TM and linking to the TM home page... I don't know if that means they are teaching them the whole kit and kaboodle, but it looks like the teachings are official TM stuff.

Assuming that the links aren't just a product of lazy journalism (chosen because TM™ is so well known that some people assume that all meditation is TM™), then I do have a problem with this. TM™ makes some claims benefits of meditation for which I have yet to see any objective verification.

I accept that the general benefits of meditation which have been supported by research will probably be obtained from TM™. My concern is to what extent official endorsement of TM™ might lead students and their families to purchase other services - for which there is no credible evidence of efficacy - from the organisation.

Heck, the "study tech" used by Applied Scholastics™ is pretty effective but it doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to sign your kid up for all the other services offered by Scientology™.

subgenius · 14th September 2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrian
Meditation = fine

Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult

Clear?

Yep.

peptoabysmal · 14th September 2003, 10:24 PM

I guess electro-shock has gone out of fashion, then.

reprise · 14th September 2003, 10:37 PM

Since this thread began, I've been waiting for someone to ask me to post studies validating the assertion that meditation is a useful stress reduction tool (one of the reasons I've been waiting is because there are some new, kick-ass studies which not only validate the original research in this respect but which begin to explain WHY).

I'm guessing that no-one has challenged the worth of meditation as a stress reduction tool because everyone who's posted to this thread so far accepts that there is credible research in support of that claim.

It's just an interesting observation that no-one has challenged the validity of meditation given how quickly we all jump on all sorts of other claims and demand evidence. There must be some reason why no-one has yet posted saying "meditation is a lot of crap"; I'm intrigued about that reason.

Pyrian · 14th September 2003, 10:46 PM

Probably because meditation as a stress reduction technique requires no supernatural effects. How different is it in principle from taking a half-hour to watch the sun set, really? Do we need to do studies on that?

That being said, I'll bite: I'd be quite interested in any references you can provide to studies on the effects thereof.

subgenius · 14th September 2003, 10:48 PM

For me, because "meditation" (other than TM) can mean anything.
From what I've seen 20 minutes of rest (say, even a nap) is as much of a benefit as any structured "meditation".
Still miss those naps from kindergarden.
Siesta's would be a good thing.

reprise · 14th September 2003, 11:16 PM

I'm just doing the dinner hour thing now, but I'd be more than happy to post a summary of the latest research and links to chasing it up (registration is required in some instances, but it's free) after dinner. It's nice to be able to post some research in support of something non-medical for a change (although there's actually the beginning of a scientific explanation of why meditation works beginning to emerge) instead of picking apart the "evidence" offered in support of some wacko theory.

FTR, I'm most encouraged by the research as it applies to criminality and recidivism rates, because that is my particular - very frustrating - field, and I will qualify my enthuisasm by stating that the research has been conducted in respect of a specific TYPE of meditiation; however, in this particular instance there is reason to believe that the basic principles can be extrapolated to other forms of meditation (and indeed that was the whole point of this very unique body of research - to confirm that spirituality was NOT a prerequisite for the effectiveness of the techniques).

Will be back with the details after dinner. No cancer cures, no levitation, but good, solid evidence that meditation is a physiologically provable (as opposed to an anecdotally proven) stress reduction technique).

subgenius · 14th September 2003, 11:22 PM

And please provide your definition of meditation and if the studies compare the results to a comparable period of simple R&R.

reprise · 14th September 2003, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by subgenius
And please provide your definition of meditation and if the studies compare the results to a comparable period of simple R&R.

I did not make any claim that meditation is more beneficial than "a simple period of R&R" - the only claim that I made is that there is credible scientific evidence supporting the claim that meditation is an effective stress reduction technique. As the populations in which this research was conducted (prison populations and factory workers) do not generally have the option to take R&R any time they feel stressed, I do not see why the results of one are comparable to the other. If I had enough money to get on a jet and go hire a babysitter when I wanted I'd probably be less stressed than I am now, that reality would not render the stress reduction techniques which are available to me as a low income single parent invalid.

Are you asking me to compare the time people spent learning meditation techniques to a holiday of the same duration? I know few people who are still showing demonstrable benefits of a 10 day holiday two years later, but I'm perfectly willing to concede that it's improbable anyone has ever researched the long-term benefits of R&R versus anything else.

Anyway, time to go do the ribs in plum sauce thing. Back later.

subgenius · 15th September 2003, 12:37 AM

I didn't mean to imply you made any claims. But these are things I would be curious about.
Like ribs in plum sauce.... sounds yummy....you must share the recipe, esp. for the plum sauce.....
P.S. wasn't referring to 10 days of R&R, even 10-20 minutes.....or any time equivalent to that spent meditating (whatever that means)

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 21st September 2003, 02:17 PM

Pyrian said:

Quote:

Meditation = fine

Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult

Clear?

Hey, I resent that! I'm a teacher of Transcendental Meditation. It is not a pop-cult. It's just a regular cult.

~~ Paul

subgenius · 21st September 2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Pyrian said:
Hey, I resent that! I'm a teacher of Transcendental Meditation. It is not a pop-cult. It's just a regular cult.

~~ Paul

I could dig it if we get to wear those cool hats, like your avatar.

13th September 2003, 11:05 PM	#1
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 398	Transcendental Meditation to be used in schools? http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...ws/6759394.htm "EDUCATION: Parents push quiet time in schools BY JOSH VERGES Pioneer Press Public schools across the Twin Cities struggle with low test scores and discipline problems. The solution, a local parent group says, might be as simple as a little meditation. Transcendental Meditation is a stress-reduction technique that puts the mind at ease. The group of parents from Minneapolis and St. Paul plans to submit a proposal to the school board, recommending schools offer TM to students during or before and after school...." I wonder if they will teach them to "levitate" too?

13th September 2003, 11:27 PM	#2
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	I wonder if they are indeed teaching TM™ or whether they are just teaching meditation and other relaxation and stress reduction techniques. If it's the latter, I wouldn't have a problem with the idea - in fact I think that high school is an ideal time for people to learn stress management skills.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

13th September 2003, 11:30 PM	#3
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	I guess the influx of uncivil children from Detroit had nothing to do with the falling test scores. These kids just need alpha waves.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

13th September 2003, 11:42 PM	#4
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	I have read no research indicating that stress management leads to better test scores, but there have been credible studies into other aspects of meditation which verify its effectiveness as a general stress reduction tool, and I'm aware of at least one study into the behaviour of prisoners which recorded a drop in discipline problems after they had been taught meditation techniques.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

13th September 2003, 11:48 PM	#5
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	TM is one of several dangerous cults that weasel their way into some pinhead administrators' brains. Its a fraud, and should be resisted vigorously.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

14th September 2003, 01:05 AM	#6
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Send Lord Kenneth to the school. I'm sure any other self-described genious would up those low test scores just as well, but I think Kenneth should be the guy...
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

14th September 2003, 10:12 AM	#7
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 398	Reprise, the article contains a paragraph describing TM and linking to the TM home page... I don't know if that means they are teaching them the whole kit and kaboodle, but it looks like the teachings are official TM stuff.

14th September 2003, 11:50 AM	#8
KelvinG Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 2,379	There is nothing wrong with teaching kids relaxation and deep breathing techniques, but to sell it under the guise of TM is a little stupid. Meditation can certainly be beneficial in terms of relaxing your mind and body without having to be associatied with new age spirituality or anything other worldly.
	__________________ Science is like a blabbermouth that ruins the ending to a movie. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things - Ned Flanders

14th September 2003, 01:25 PM	#9
Pyrian Scholar Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 82	Meditation = fine Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult Clear?
Pyrian Scholar Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 82

14th September 2003, 01:32 PM	#10
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Quote: Originally posted by JSFolk Reprise, the article contains a paragraph describing TM and linking to the TM home page... I don't know if that means they are teaching them the whole kit and kaboodle, but it looks like the teachings are official TM stuff. Assuming that the links aren't just a product of lazy journalism (chosen because TM™ is so well known that some people assume that all meditation is TM™), then I do have a problem with this. TM™ makes some claims benefits of meditation for which I have yet to see any objective verification. I accept that the general benefits of meditation which have been supported by research will probably be obtained from TM™. My concern is to what extent official endorsement of TM™ might lead students and their families to purchase other services - for which there is no credible evidence of efficacy - from the organisation. Heck, the "study tech" used by Applied Scholastics™ is pretty effective but it doesn't mean that it would be a good idea to sign your kid up for all the other services offered by Scientology™.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

14th September 2003, 01:33 PM	#11
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	Quote: Originally posted by Pyrian Meditation = fine Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult Clear? Yep.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

14th September 2003, 10:24 PM	#12
peptoabysmal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,468	I guess electro-shock has gone out of fashion, then.

14th September 2003, 10:37 PM	#13
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Since this thread began, I've been waiting for someone to ask me to post studies validating the assertion that meditation is a useful stress reduction tool (one of the reasons I've been waiting is because there are some new, kick-ass studies which not only validate the original research in this respect but which begin to explain WHY). I'm guessing that no-one has challenged the worth of meditation as a stress reduction tool because everyone who's posted to this thread so far accepts that there is credible research in support of that claim. It's just an interesting observation that no-one has challenged the validity of meditation given how quickly we all jump on all sorts of other claims and demand evidence. There must be some reason why no-one has yet posted saying "meditation is a lot of crap"; I'm intrigued about that reason.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

14th September 2003, 10:46 PM	#14
Pyrian Scholar Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 82	Probably because meditation as a stress reduction technique requires no supernatural effects. How different is it in principle from taking a half-hour to watch the sun set, really? Do we need to do studies on that? That being said, I'll bite: I'd be quite interested in any references you can provide to studies on the effects thereof.
Pyrian Scholar Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 82

14th September 2003, 10:48 PM	#15
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	For me, because "meditation" (other than TM) can mean anything. From what I've seen 20 minutes of rest (say, even a nap) is as much of a benefit as any structured "meditation". Still miss those naps from kindergarden. Siesta's would be a good thing.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

14th September 2003, 11:16 PM	#16
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	I'm just doing the dinner hour thing now, but I'd be more than happy to post a summary of the latest research and links to chasing it up (registration is required in some instances, but it's free) after dinner. It's nice to be able to post some research in support of something non-medical for a change (although there's actually the beginning of a scientific explanation of why meditation works beginning to emerge) instead of picking apart the "evidence" offered in support of some wacko theory. FTR, I'm most encouraged by the research as it applies to criminality and recidivism rates, because that is my particular - very frustrating - field, and I will qualify my enthuisasm by stating that the research has been conducted in respect of a specific TYPE of meditiation; however, in this particular instance there is reason to believe that the basic principles can be extrapolated to other forms of meditation (and indeed that was the whole point of this very unique body of research - to confirm that spirituality was NOT a prerequisite for the effectiveness of the techniques). Will be back with the details after dinner. No cancer cures, no levitation, but good, solid evidence that meditation is a physiologically provable (as opposed to an anecdotally proven) stress reduction technique).
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

14th September 2003, 11:22 PM	#17
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	And please provide your definition of meditation and if the studies compare the results to a comparable period of simple R&R.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

14th September 2003, 11:54 PM	#18
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Quote: Originally posted by subgenius And please provide your definition of meditation and if the studies compare the results to a comparable period of simple R&R. I did not make any claim that meditation is more beneficial than "a simple period of R&R" - the only claim that I made is that there is credible scientific evidence supporting the claim that meditation is an effective stress reduction technique. As the populations in which this research was conducted (prison populations and factory workers) do not generally have the option to take R&R any time they feel stressed, I do not see why the results of one are comparable to the other. If I had enough money to get on a jet and go hire a babysitter when I wanted I'd probably be less stressed than I am now, that reality would not render the stress reduction techniques which are available to me as a low income single parent invalid. Are you asking me to compare the time people spent learning meditation techniques to a holiday of the same duration? I know few people who are still showing demonstrable benefits of a 10 day holiday two years later, but I'm perfectly willing to concede that it's improbable anyone has ever researched the long-term benefits of R&R versus anything else. Anyway, time to go do the ribs in plum sauce thing. Back later.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859

15th September 2003, 12:37 AM	#19
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	I didn't mean to imply you made any claims. But these are things I would be curious about. Like ribs in plum sauce.... sounds yummy....you must share the recipe, esp. for the plum sauce..... P.S. wasn't referring to 10 days of R&R, even 10-20 minutes.....or any time equivalent to that spent meditating (whatever that means)
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal

21st September 2003, 02:17 PM	#20
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,632	Pyrian said: Quote: Meditation = fine Transcendental Meditation = bizarre pop-cult Clear? Hey, I resent that! I'm a teacher of Transcendental Meditation. It is not a pop-cult. It's just a regular cult. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

21st September 2003, 02:31 PM	#21
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	Quote: Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Pyrian said: Hey, I resent that! I'm a teacher of Transcendental Meditation. It is not a pop-cult. It's just a regular cult. ~~ Paul I could dig it if we get to wear those cool hats, like your avatar.
subgenius Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,788	__________________ "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power."---Franklin D. Roosevelt Proud to be Liberal